Talk:Cat play and toys
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[edit] Pics
I guess we need some, of the toys. I dont have any at the mo... Tabby (talk) 03:41, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
- Not a bad idea, but I would recommend focusing on adding references first. —Viriditas | Talk 04:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Encyclopedic
This article reads less encyclopedia and more Cat Fancy Magazine. 71.192.54.222 (talk) 22:56, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Yeah--"mewed altering substance" WTF LOL ThVa (talk) 12:51, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree that this sounds like a anthropomorphic Cat Lover's article and doesn't read like a encyclopedic article at all. I've highlighted the anthropomorhpism in the following quote, "Predators like prey that is scared of them, reacts with fear, and tries to run and hide. Prey that moves towards the cat with confidence is very offputting, as in the wild this means the likelihood of an attack. So for maximum fun, cat toys should act in fear, trying to hide, jumping slightly when attacked, acting panicky, and trying to escape." I'm not saying that cat's don't feel these emotions/ideas; however, I do believe that evidence should be given that cats feel these emotions and ideas rather than postulating the emotional capacity of cats. This would lend objectivity to the article. Assuming that cats have feelings without evidence lends a "Cat Fancier's" tone to the article. Additionally there is no evidence or citation for any of this. StateOfTheUnion (talk) 11:00, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Also a discussion of the various prey that toys are "equated" to and the characteristics that equate the prey to the various toys may lend more credibility to the article. StateOfTheUnion (talk) 11:00, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
"Just like human play, the more realistic games are, the more enjoyable they are." I don't understand this postulate. There are many games that humans enjoy with little to no "realism" whatsoever. Card games come to mind as a game that does attempt to closely simulate a real world behavior. But there are many people that find card games highly enjoyable. Additionally, fantasy games such as "CandyLand" are enjoyable but not realistic. The recently released video game "Portal" is arguably enjoyable and somewhat realistic. But it is enjoyable and interesting specifically because of an unrealistic premise. In the game portal the "portals" are a non-realistic construct that is the underlying premise of the game that makes the game interesting. I strongly disagree that enjoyment of a game is predicated on the realism of the game. StateOfTheUnion (talk) 11:17, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
These are arguably reasons to rephrase, add refs, or add additional viewpoints, but not really to delete an article. An article on cat play is a valid part of cat behaviour, and useful to lots of readers. Deprodded. Tabby (talk) 12:59, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Are you saying that improvement of gameplay by making it more realistic does not exist? I would have thought the effect common knowledge, and the fact that some games are not realistic does not change this any afaics. Some games need or benefit from realism, some dont. As examples, space invaders doesnt, doll games do. Tabby (talk) 13:22, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
"Predators like prey that is scared of them, reacts with fear, and tries to run and hide. Prey that moves towards the cat with confidence is very offputting, as in the wild this means the likelihood of an attack."
This is just the basic power play of predation explained, and is not specific to any one species, or even to any one type of predatory scenario. Are you saying predators disregard risk to themselves when approaching potential prey? Tabby (talk) 13:27, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Delete or improve
Quoted from Wikipedia:Articles for deletion:
"Before nominating a recently created article, please consider that many good articles started their Wikilife in pretty bad shape. Unless it is obviously a hopeless case, consider sharing your reservations with the article creator, mentioning your concerns on the article's discussion page, and/or adding a "cleanup" template, instead of bringing the article to AfD."
Having read (and often edited) many start class articles, I would say this one is doing fine for a first draft. No doubt over time the additional viewpoints will be added, refs for claims (or opposing claims) will get added, and so on.
How cats behave in play, and how they relate to the toys around does seem a valid encyclopaedic topic to me, and a fairly important part of cat behaviour. The material will develop, wiki articles do over time. If all first drafts were deleted, much good material we have today would not be here. Tabby (talk) 08:36, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
This takes time, and I don't have it today, tomorrow or the next day. I or other users will get there over time if the article remains. Tabby (talk) 10:34, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- There's a better way: Find sources that deal directly with the topic, add them to a references section, and add a "refimprove" tag. You can also ask the cat project to help you. —Viriditas | Talk 12:07, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Tabby, I added a request at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cats. —Viriditas | Talk 12:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
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- I think the article can be improved. I stumbled across this somehow or another, and then started to see what I could find. For now, I'm just going to list these on the talk page. Hopefully later I can get around to incorporating these into the text, but someone else can surely jump in if they want!
- One of the problems will be finding acceptable sources, which is why I've chosen only SPCA related sources. Yngvarr 02:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
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[edit] Fish bowl
A bowl containing fish can capture a cat's attention, but there is no play opportunity.
- I'm pretty sure that cats can turn this into a play opportunity, real quick. Should this be removed? —Viriditas | Talk 20:55, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Usually they just sit & watch IME, but my E is only a small sample. If you can tell us how they play with a fishtank, or point to something, I'd be interested to hear. Tabby (talk) 05:08, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- A fish bowl is slightly different than a fish tank, and in my experience, cats will "fish" with their paws. I've known cats who could even open tank lids and pull fish out with one paw while keeping the lid open with the other. I'm fairly certain this is a play opportunity, but not one we would recommend. —Viriditas | Talk 09:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
heh, I guess we need a rephrase then :) Tabby (talk) 07:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Refs
Searching for refs is proving excessively slow. Anyone got any clever ideas for how to get more useufl returns than just googling the key words?
Nice to see people chipping in and improving the article. Tabby (talk) 05:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] WP:NOT#MANUAL
I've Been bold and removed half this article - it's not a manual on how to play with your cat any more than Cat is a manual on how to take care of one. This is an encyclopedia article about the nature of cat play - can we expand on the interesting and relevant sections we left? I'd love to see more about why cats play, what excites them, what role it plays in their development, et cetera, from a psychological and biological point of view. Reviewing cat toys just doesn't cut it. Kuronue | Talk 16:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Why would a list of popular toys be out of place in an article on cat play and toys? Tabby (talk) 23:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Suggestion
What might work here is to look at natural cat behavior and environment and then group toys and how they imitate that. (BTW your fishbowl imitates cats waiting in front of a mouse-hole or near a body of water till prey comes within convenient reach. Some people entertain their indoor cat by cutting a hole into their baseboard and drywall.) Some wild cats fish and so do some domesticated cats. Many domesticated cats imitate the movement of flinging a fish out of the water with toys. A list of toys is problematic because they are products s.o. makes money off. Just listing product names won't fly. But describing the type of product and what features it has that attract cats and then listing a couple of examples of home-made and manufactured toys in each category might go. Remember also that products may not be universally available, types of products are. "Mouse manufactured from rabbit fur with leather tail" everyone can go look for. "Katz Supermouse" will not be available everywhere and if the manufacturer discontinues of changes it you're in trouble. You can look at what certain materials have in common with cats' natural environment. OR those that don't have an easily recognizable equivalent. BTW Cats also play hide and seek, not just "predator games". In nature they use cover like trees and shrubs to get close to their prey as well as to hide from bigger predators that might want to put them on the menu. I've not had any cat yet that didn't enjoy a good chase.
The behavior based approach has the advantage that you can then link to all sorts of other wikipedia pages. References for behavior and materials are also easier to generate. Well linked pages are less likely to get tossed out. I'd be glad to lend a hand, but right now I'm still finishing up another project. Leave a message on my talk page if there's something specific I could help with. I've had domesticated, feral and wild cats. (The real thing.) I've seen quite a bit of behavior that was similar and equally stuff that totally baffled me. --Lisa4edit (talk) 05:27, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
