Talk:Cass Elliot

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[edit] Not a ham sandwich

The article says "a partially eaten ham sandwich was found by her bed". I doubt it. See http://www.snopes.com/music/artists/mamacass.htm

Her doctor speculated (he turned out to be wrong, according to the death certificate) that she choked on a sandwich. There was no mention of ham. See http://www.findadeath.com/Deceased/e/Cass%20Elliot/Cass_Article_small.JPG and http://www.findadeath.com/Deceased/e/Cass%20Elliot/DC.JPG, both linked from http://www.findadeath.com/Deceased/e/Cass%20Elliot/cass_elliot.htm

If you can find a credible source from the time that says there was a sandwich (ham or otherwise) in the room, then cite it.

munge

In an interview with TV Land, her daughter claimed that there had been a sandwich in the room, but there were no bites taken out of it. She also claimed that her mother would not eat a ham sandwich as she was Jewish.Mustang6172 08:40, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


Also, what's with the picture of the 'acutal ham sandwich'. I'm sure that a half eaten ham sandwich from the 70s wouldn't look like a whole sandwich in a frypan. Is this a genuiene photo or not?--124.181.97.253 09:26, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

A link to that TV Land interview would be helpful. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 15:38, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edits

Can an editor more familiar with this topic review these edits. They were made by someone who made other edits that needed to be reverted. —siroχo 00:00, May 28, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Pipe Incident

FWIW the official site has an interview (Rolling Stone October 26, 1968, No. 20) in which the following exchange is given:-

"Is that a true story about a pipe falling on your head…

     It’s true, I did get hit on the head by a pipe that fell down and my range 
     was increased by three notes.  They were tearing this club apart in the 
     islands, revamping it, putting in a dance floor.  Workmen dropped a thin 
     metal plumbing pipe and it hit me on the head and knocked me to the 
     ground.  I had a concussion and went to the hospital.  I had a bad 
     headache for about two weeks and all of a sudden I was singing higher.  
     It’s true.  Honest to God.

[edit] The Las Vegas gig that "ended badly"

Those into schadenfreude will enjoy the article from Esquire Magazine June, 1969 by William Kloman entitled SINK ALONG WITH MAMA CASS, found at the official Mama Cass website

[edit] Pics?

Any pictures of call elliot? I am interested in what she looks (looked) like. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TullFan2000 (talk • contribs)

Though it probably wasn't there when you posted this question, now their is a pic of the whole band at the beginning of the article. — Frecklefoot | Talk 18:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Peter Tork, father of her child?

Her relationship with Peter Tork of The Monkees has been reported in many places. Was he the father of her child? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.225.124.179 (talk • contribs)

No one knows. I think that was made pretty clear in the article. I don't anyone will know unless her daughter comes forward and announces who it is. — Frecklefoot | Talk 13:50, 6 October 2006 (UTC)


Actually, quite a few people know that Owen Elliot's father is the legendary guitarist Chuck Day, including Owen herself. Chuck was at one time the bass player and sometimes second guitar lead for the Mamas and Papas recording sessions. I was present when Owen met her biological father for the first time. The meeting was NOT arranged by Michelle Phillips at all, but by Owen's legal guardian, Cass's sister. Cass had confided in her sister about the true identity of the father, shorly after Owen's birth. Chuck suspected for many years that he was Owen's father, but never received confirmation of that until long after Cass's death when Owen sought out her bilogical father. Out of respect for Cass, he never approached Owen until she expressed an interest in meeting him.
In addition, I've known Peter Torkelson for over 20 years, and he has never admitted any intimate relationship with Cass, though they were indeed good friends.

Jazzorama 01:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Title of nobility

When I stumbled across this article, it claimed that Cass Elliott was Baroness von Wiedenmann by marriage to Baron von Wiedenman. I do not know Baron von Wiedenman, but I doubt he was noble.

If he were or was American or Canadian, he wouldn't be noble, because both countries have no peerage.
If he were British, then why would he be named von Wiedenmann? That is a German preposition.
Finally, if he were German, Austrian, or Swiss, those countries again have no peerage.

Admittedly, if he were German, his wife would by law receive the surname "Baronin von Wiedemann", but that doesn't mean she is a Baroness, only her last name would reflect her gender, and in any case, it would be Baronin, not Baroness. That only leaves the possibility that Baron von Wiedenmann is a baron in the peeerage of Liechtenstein, an area over which I have no knowledge. That, however, I consider highly unlikely! And finally, all three times that the nobility of Cass Elliott was added, it was under an anonymous IP: [1], [2] [3] Blur4760 22:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

It was clearly vandalism, you were right to remove it. I don't think she was ever married, but she certainly wasn't married to royalty. — Frecklefoot | Talk 00:20, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Incorrect. She was married to Donald von Wiedenman who is identified all over the place as a Baron. See the official Cass Elliot website - http://www.casselliot.com/imagepage2.htm - for a photo with the caption: "Cass and her second husband Baron Donald von Wiedenman, 1971" Tvoz 00:20, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
The Time obituary was appearently written by somebody who did not know much about Germany. Her husband could not have been heir to a barony, because Germany was a republic at that time. That is also the reason why she couldn't become a baroness. Legally, all former noble titles form part of the surname, thus her husband's name could have been Donald Baron von Wiedenman. This man was then appearently known under the name Baron Donald von Wiedenman. However, his wife cannot be a Baroness, because he is legally not a baron. Furthermore, under German law, her name would have been registered under "Baronin von Wiedenman" (not Baroness von Wiedenman) if it was registered in Germany at all. Again, that does not mean that she was a baroness; it is just common practice that former noble titles that form part of the surname of a person will be inflected according to gender in Germany. And there is no source so far that claims that she was a baroness (and if there is, it would be absurd: Germany is a republic, and has no baronesses; I thought that was common knowledge. People can be known as something, but that doesn't make them that). My source for the legal situation regarding last names and titles of nobility in Germany would be "Die Adelsbezeichnung im deutschen und ausländischen Recht" ("Titles of nobility under German and foreign law") by Karl Friedrich Dumoulin, 1997. I am sorry there I have no English source, but I guess there are not many books in English that deal with the question of what happened to former German noble titles after Germany became a republic. All that said, I am removing the claim that she was a baroness. Blur4760 22:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] this article

I am concerned that this article overall has too many unreferenced claims, and there is too much nasty trivia, disguised as "urban legends" and "references in the media". I also think that this article should focus more on Cass and cut down on the Mamas and the Papas section with a pointer to the main article (which could use some work too) - for example, why is the main picture one of the group? Let's try to find an acceptable one of Cass. She had a powerful solo career, and she was a formidable presence in the group, so there should be more to say about her than details about Michelle's love life. Just my opinion, of course. Tvoz 00:45, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you on one point: I think the entire "References to Cass Elliot in media" section should be tossed out. Most of it is pointless and does nothing to enlighten the reader as to Elliot's life and contributions.
However, the rest of the things you cite, I don't agree with. She did have a succesful solo career, and that is noted in the article. But the only way she got it was via the Mamas & the Papas. She did it after them, but being with them gave her the clout for a solo career. Michelle's love life and hers were intertwined because of the Mamas & Papas. You can't cover her love life without mentioning Michelle.
And, as for the main picture, photos are always a problem for Wikipedia. Finding one we can use is problematic because of copyright and such. However, when I viewed this article, the main picture was from the cover of solo album of hers. Only one photo in the article has the rest of the Mamas & the Papas. And it is appropriate—the Mamas & the Papas were a significant part of her professional life. — Frecklefoot | Talk 09:56, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Right - after I wrote the above I added the solo album cover photo as the main pic and moved the M&P pic down on the page to where it completely appropriately belongs. I don;t want to remove the M&P stuff -- of course it is central to Cass's bio -- I just think the emphasis is a bit skewed here. And yes, Michelle is totally relevant, but it seemed to me that this article went off a bit too much on what happened to Michelle and not enough about Cass. I'll read it again with your comments in mind and see if I still think so. But first I'm having breakfast! Tvoz 16:43, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

The section "Urban legends" seems to have been vandalized: ...however the reason why no traces of ham sandwhich had been found may have been because Cass refused to give them up. Arriving on the scene Doctor Scummer Greenmould (a local GP) cited some items of ham in Cass's throat however when he tried to retrieve such items a battle ensued. After three hours of fighting the corpse, Greenmould gave up saying "Tell the fat cow she can keep it", to which the corpse of Cass replied "can you hand me the rest of the sandwhich?". Greenmould succumbed to his injuries three days later suffering from the loss of most his body organs to Cass who appeared to have eaten them. Thus it is impossible to tell what really happened that night however one of waiters at the hotel confirmed this story, Rennee Gough (now head waiter of the Abattoir Arms in Hull) sold his story to the Sun on the 1st January 2000 but sadly his computer was suffering from the Millenium bug and thus did not work.

84.216.58.196 18:38, 27 May 2007 (UTC) P-A Olsson, Sweden

[edit] this is offensive

Again, I'm finding all of this ham sandwich stuff offensive and demeaning to the article - the so-called "references in the media" section and the "urban legend" nonsense. Yes, I know that this is part of the story about her, so maybe one mention would be ok - at most that the mistaken report of her choking went on to fuel years of jokes - but it's starting to feel like a contest for who can find the most obnoxious and unimportant references to this woman's death. I haven't checked, but I'd bet that Abraham Lincoln doesn't include the joke that starts "But other than that, Mrs. Lincoln...". Yeah, I know, not the same thing. Is this just me, or does anyone else find this somewhere between incredibly juvenile and very sick? And why is it worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia???Tvoz 02:00, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, now I see that User:Frecklefoot had agreed with my earlier point on this - I missed that somehow - so does anyone have a good reason not to remove all of this nonsense? If not, I am going to do it unless someone else beats me to it. Tvoz 02:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree to the changes you made except one. You made it sound like John Phillips admitted that he made up the story about her being hit on the head and it changing her voice. He never admitted to making up the story. As a matter of fact, Ellot herself validated the story in a Rolling Stone article. Why would you remove that? I admit that having a pipe hit you on the head is a strange way to get a voice change, but since she admitted it, it should be left in. Other than that, I agree to the changes. — Frecklefoot | Talk 18:09, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm sure I responded here but I must have forgotten to hit save. Let's see if I remember what I said. My reasoning is as follows: Cass's interview was in 1968, when the M&P were still more or less intact. Yes, she said it was true, but John's interview was in 1986, long after her death, and it sounds to me like he was indeed revealing the background truth of that story. I read (will look for the citation) that the reason he used that excuse as to why he had not originally let her in the group was because the real reason had nothing to do with her voice (which of course was spectacular with or without the 3 notes) but had to do with her weight, her look. I think I didn't put that in the piece because it may have been someone else's view of why JOhn made up the story - but I will check into this whole thing further in the next few days. But if you look back at the way our article read before my change, there was a clear implication that John had indeed said he made up the story. If that is in fact the truth, that he made up the story, the fact that she validated the story doesn't really mean anything - we don';t know what her motivation was. Maybe she knew the real reason for JOhn's making up the story (about her weight) and didn't want to validate that. This is speculation,of course, as much as the rest of this section is. So I tried to stick to the citable "facts". But by the way - as far as I'm concerned, the entire "pipe on the head" section could be removed from the article in its entirety, and I would be happy. I don't think it adds anything, any more than the ham sandwich. But the ham sandwich myth is so well-known that I guess it would be odd for it not to be alluded to. So - I'd say remove the whole pipe thing, but I won't do it yet, pending hearing from you and others here. Tvoz 09:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd read a bit on it elsewhere and I'm not sure. I read something where her sister said the whole "changing voice" thing was nonsense, but I don't think she denied that she had an accident. Possibly she did get hit by a pipe, but the result was ordinary. (Pain, a knot on the head, maybe brief unconsciousness) After that they decided to use that to build a legend/excuse.--T. Anthony 11:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
That's how it seems to me too - I'm trying to get a copy of the video or a transcript of it to see if anything else is revealed - if not, I am inclined to remove the whole section. Tvoz | talk 06:48, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of the name

Denny Doherty's claim about the name, "The Mamas and the Papas" implies that this was the first occasion (1965) that Cass called herself "mama" but that is contradicted by the illustration just above of the album cover of "The Big Three" which was apparently issued in 1963. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.12.252.11 (talk • contribs)

Right you are! But Doherty himself says that his memory of the 60s is fuzzy, since everyone was doing so many drugs and such. But that is according to him anyway, and it is cited. You can express the contradiction, if you like, but we have to be careful about original research, so please provide a ref if you can. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 13:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How much did she weigh?

How much did she weigh? The article makes no mention of this. Thanks in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.159.186 (talk) 17:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

That's probably because people's weight isn't a matter of public record. If you can find a copy of her death certificate online, it probably mentions it, but otherwise you're out of luck. Denny Doherty in his retrospective show on The Mommas & the Papas said she weighed upward of 300 pounds, but that was just a guess on his part. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 18:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)