Talk:Carrick bend

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Contents 1 Carrick District Council 2 Carricky-on-Suir? 3 Wake Knot 4 Tighten vs. Capsize

[edit] Carrick District Council

I'm removing the statement: "Carrick is also a local government district in Cornwall and the knot is the emblem of Carrick District Council." from the Etymology section. Assuming this organization does in fact use the knot as an emblem, and I did not see it on their website, it appears they chose after the knot already had that name rather than being the source. See the bottom part of this page. (Incidentally, it would be interesting to get more information or photos of the knots depicted in Ormonde Castle...) --Dfred 03:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Carricky-on-Suir?

In an edit at 2006-11-12T22:55:20 the user at 70.73.37.17 changed Carrick-on-Suir to Carricky-on-Suir, breaking the link. I could find no Google matches for Carricky-on-Suir so I reverted this edit. If the correct name is Carricky, please provide a reference. --Dfred 15:36, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wake Knot

The heraldic device is more commonly called a "Wake Knot". It is the emblem of the Wake family, of whom Hereward the Wake is the name which springs to mind. The knot appears as an emblem in many areas where the family held land, particularly in Lincolnshire. It appears as a device on the Coat of Arms of the town of Bourne. The emblematic use of the knot appears to be in the right of the family, and they have been known to take a dim view of usage they deem inappropriate (certainly in Bourne it is a no-no).

In view of the comments in the article, and notwithstanding the Wikipedia strictures about original research, it might be worthwhile to establish whether the buildings where the knot has been used decoratively have (or have had) any connection with the Wake family.

Guy 10:09, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd not heard of that particular name/association, but it is interesting information. Sounds like the Wake family's claim might be a regional thing. The knot is definitely used in other coats of arms, for instance the City of Dundee uses it -- see page 8 of this PDF for a hi-res version. Wikipedians in the UK (I'm not) probably have access much better reference materials wrt these questions. --Dfred 18:14, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

This is the Coat of Arms of Bourne Town Council [1]. I do not have the written description of the Arms to hand, which will describe the knot. Comparing these descriptions will be a starting-point for a researcher. In heraldry the artist works with the heraldic description to produce a picture, and therefore there might be slight differences, even between pictures of the same Arms. Often features are more stylised, that is the skill of a good heraldic artist. Guy 20:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

This is interesting: [2]. It is a description of the Stafford knot. The Stafford knot (not "Staffordshire") is the emblem of the Stafford family, and is tied using a single strand. It seems that there is some common ancestry there (the Stafford family was linked to the Wake family). Guy 16:06, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Added mention and ref for association with Hereward the Wake to article. --Dfred 11:54, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tighten vs. Capsize

I missed these edits when they were first made, but since they've stood for a while I figured I'd explain my reasoning for the reverts... I understand the intent of changing the terminology in the article to make it more accessible to the general reader, but I believe there are a few problems conflating the knotting concepts of capsizing and tightening. The fundamental issue is that these terms don't mean the same thing. To wit, the seized form of the knot pictured is actually quite "tight" and the capsized form in the much larger rope is actually not really tightened to a great extent. I've worked on a couple knot terminology articles (e.g. bight (knot), turn (knot)) to make their use in WP knot articles more accessible to the general reader -- perhaps something like that is needed for knot capsizing as well.

The question of accessibility aside, the major reason I'm reverting these changes is that the cited references (and in particular Day's AKS) use the term capsize. I've reworked the first use of "capsize" in the article to provide a clearer explanation. --Dfred (talk) 19:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your knot related expertise. I had no idea references cited the seized flat weave as the real deal. This didn't and doesn't make any intuitive sense to me. I consider seizing a knot in place cheating. ;) Cheers, --Netizen 22:09, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Note: I've had a look in TABoK. It does not require seizing in #1439. It gives seized a version in #1446. Quote "1446. Hawser Bends are always seized [...]. Two round seizings are sufficient for the _Full Carrick Bend_." #1439 gives a sequence of 3 steps, the flat weave being the second and the tightend version being the final step. --Netizen 18:29, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

2nd Note: A bit further down the page in the text for #1445: "[...] anything at all, even the _Whatnot_, will hold if well seized." --Netizen 18:37, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Yea, there's a lot of information on those few pages. Some of it could probably be worked in here, but much of it might go better in the seizing article.

Point taken about seizing being a "cheat". :) But in the days of natural fiber cordage hawsers were generally over 5 inches in circumference (ABOK, p23) which no doubt made it fairly difficult to get the bend to capsize and take a good set before real loading... And, in general, seizing can make somewhat unstable knots (e.g. Round turn and two half-hitches) into very stable ones which remain quite easy to release after the seizing is cut. --Dfred (talk) 18:32, 2 December 2007 (UTC)