Talk:Carfentanil

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

WikiProject Pharmacology (Rated start-Class) Carfentanil is part of WikiProject Pharmacology, a project to improve all Pharmacology-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other pharmacology articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome. Start This article has been rated as start-Class on the quality scale. Mid This article has been rated as mid-importance for this Project's importance scale. WikiProject Chemicals (Rated start-Class) Chemistry Portal Carfentanil is within the scope of WikiProject Chemicals, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of chemicals. To participate, help improve this article or visit the project page for details on the project. This article is also supported by WikiProject Chemistry. Start This article has been rated as start-Class on the quality scale. Low This article has been rated as low-importance on the importance scale. Article Grading: The article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need.

[edit] Jurassic park reference

Is the t-rex reference really needed? Whats worse is that it's stated like it's fact, "it took 20mg to take down a t-rex", c'mon get real. Trivia sections SHOULD NOT be added to every single page.

[edit] Mechanical ventilation, etc

I reverted this anon addition to the article: "(however, as the acute toxic effect of opioids is essentially a drug-induced apnea, artificial ventilation might have been sufficient to save the victims)." (referring to the Moscow theater crisis).

This is original research as there is no citation of the exact medical reasons for the deaths of the victims. While it could have been simple respiratory arrest secondary to opioid toxicity, that's speculation unless sourced. Given the immense potency of carfentanil and associated substances, it's possible that the victims received such a massive overdose that additional toxic effects were seen beyond respiratory depression. Again, this is original research so it's best to leave the article as is unless more detailed sources are found. --Bk0 15:49, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

This is anon speaking. I respectfully beg to disagree with your opinion. It is entirely unlikely that any other toxic effect beside respiratory arrest would be life-threatening after a carfentanil overdose. Contrary to your arguments, it is precisely the immense potency of carfentanil that makes it highly improbable that other effects were involved. Firstly, no drug of that potency is likely to have any significant non-receptor-mediated effects because of the extremely small amount of substance necessary to achieve lethal effects; secondly, fentanyl derivatives act essentially on the usual opiod receptors (mu receptors, mostly) and besides analgesia and some degree of sedation, apnea is the only significant effect of fentanyl derivatives that is in any way related to vital functions. To summarise, there's no reason to believe that apnea is not the primary (and probably only) cause of death in carfentanil intoxication. Therefore, if the Moscow victims suffered from carfentanil intoxication there is no reason to assume that they died from anything but respiratory arrest, and if they did, then artificial ventilation would have been life-saving, just as with any other victim of opioid overdose. 87.122.55.86

Basically, we're getting into sketchy territory here because carfentanil being the active constituent of the Moscow gas is speculation on behalf of a primary source. So we're speculating about unconfirmed speculation, which, if not strictly original research, is dangerous for an encyclopedia that's supposed to be completely verifiable. For instance, there's little or no credible evidence that the unnamed fentanyl analog (which may or may not be carfentanil) was the sole active constituent in the secret military gas. Therefore the assumption that respiratory arrest was the sole lethal effect is difficult to completely justify.

Perhaps a more cautiously worded addition would be better: "Assuming that carfentanil was the only active constituent (which has not been verified by the Russian military), the primary acute toxic effect to the theatre victims would have been drug-induced apnea..." --Bk0 18:51, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you there and it would be fine with me to have the latter wording included, perhaps as "Assuming that carfentanil was the only active constituent (which has not been verified by the Russian military), the primary acute toxic effect to the theatre victims would have been opioid-induced apnea; in this case mechanical ventilation or treatment with opioid antagonists such as naloxone would have been life-saving for many or all victims." I would be happy to see that or a similar phrasing included but will leave it to you to actually make the edit. 87.122.4.185

Done. --Bk0 20:48, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Strongest opioid?

I'd just like to point out that Ohmefentanyl has an isomer (F9204) that is 13KX morphine. There is also an siomer mixture of Ohmefenanyl that has a reported potency in the region of 20-50KX morphine. More recent studies point to analogue such as fluoro-OMF that is even more potent. Perhaps a new section needs to be opened up to clarify this as clealry there are is some controversy over the strongest opioid or at the very least we are not 100% clear on the issue. (unsigned by Nuklear)

(moved from main article):
I think this whole page is full of bugs. It might be good reading for a very superficial account though. I have read the reference and no where does it provide conclusive evidence that the gas was infact carfentanil although I am not saying it wasnt, I am just saying that such claims should only be construed as being speculative. (unsigned by Nuklear)

Can you give more information on Ohmefentanyl and the related analogs you're talking about? Specifically, structural diagrams and citations would be preferable; you may want to consider creating articles about these compounds. Once we have sufficient sources for your claims I'll be happy to edit this article to include them. --Bk0 (Talk) 01:07, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually I just clarrified with my friend and Ohmefentanyl is less potent than carfentanil whereas F9204 is more potent. However it is RTI-4614-4 (a racemic pair of the syn-diasteromers based on beta-hydroxy-3-methyl-fentanyl) that is most potent. I think that it has a potency in the range of 25 thousand times more than morphine.