Talk:Capitalism/Archive 23

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Pope Benedict's recent criticism of Capitalism

There should be some information about Pope Benedict's recent criticism of capitalism in this article. --PaladinWriter 17:44, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure one person's criticism (even as important as the pope may be to some people) should be included unless it's very substantial and ongoing, since this is a comprehensive subject. The Pope simply criticized "unfettered" communism, which could mean something different to everyone. He also criticized Marxism. I don't think it would be particularly useful to include.--Gloriamarie 23:28, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

P.R. Sarkar

Is not a amjor theorist of capitalism, for example not cited in academic literature.Ultramarine 23:41, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Sarkar is a major theorist of capitalism, but not an economist. Moreover, he is Indian, which may work against him. Ultramarine is invited to expand his horizons by reading the following works by Ravi Batra

  • "The Downfall of Capitalism and Communism: a New Study of History" (MacMillan, 1978)
  • " PROUT and Economic Reform in India (AM Press, 1980)
  • "The Great Depression of 1990" (Simon and Schuster, 1987) - #1 NY Times bestseller

and much, much more. Actually, Dr.Batra's has devoted his career to expanding on the insights of P.R. Sarkar relating to Capitalism, also in particular the social dynamics, in numerous articles in peer reviewed journals in economics. The futurists Sohail Inayatullah and peace sociologist Johan Galtung have devoted much attention to Sarkar in works like:

  • Situating Sarkar: Tantra, Macrohistory and Alternative Futures (Gurkula Press, 1999)
  • Macrohistory and Macrohistorians (Greenwood, 1996)
  • Economics in another key

Galtung has even written: "Prabhat Ranjan Sarkar will stand as one of the greats of this century". Ofthe1780s 23:56, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

There are numerous bestsellers, no reason to include one in particular. Neither Sarkar or Batra are important in the peer-reviewed literature.Ultramarine 00:03, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with the assessment. It is unfair if only because we must keep in mind that we are dealing with a minority of "critics" and they don´t enjoy favour in mainstream theory. Ofthe1780s 00:08, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
There are at least tens of thousands of not well-known economists and philosophers, many claiming that just they deserve more recognition for their very important works. But in Wikipeida we can only look at what the academic world thinks. When these people are recognized as of major importance in the academic literature, then we can include them in a very broad summary article like this one.Ultramarine 00:12, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
How does one decide wether a work is academic or not? If it's reviewed and approved by "some people" it might be included? So is the wikipedia in this way also censured by academics (politics)? Shouldn't there be some kind of vote method implemented, or some other way to decide for this kind of subject, that is so heavily censured by western (and eastern) politicians? Do people have no right to know what censured writers say? Mr soros 23:34, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Sarkar was imprisoned by Indira Gandhi's regime and became famous in India as a leader of a socio spiritual movement, Ananda Marga, fighting the rampant political corruption of their special strain of state-run-capitalism. Your proposed criteria of peer-reviewed western economics journals is way too narrow. Ofthe1780s 00:19, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Then add that to an India article. Again, there are numerous people claiming to be important and not recognized. Wikipedia is not the place to correct this, read WP:SOAP.Ultramarine 00:23, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Sarkar is a major contributor to economics. Should we move the other Capitalism contributors to their respective home country pages. Adam Smith became famous in Scotland and England and France shortly after death. Karl Marx, however, died in 1864 and did not become world famous for his contribution until over half a century later, in 1917. So global recognition can vary. Sarkar died in 1990, and I expect his recognition for his contribution will come also in the West, but likely not until we have another major economic calamity or environmental disaster. He was also a leading contributor on sustainable economics. Ofthe1780s 01:13, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I have looked, and very few people cite Sarkar. When they do, we can add him.Ultramarine 01:30, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
As I said, this is a too narrow criteria identified by you, to focus on the peer-reviewed journals of America, as clearly Sarkar is a much more important all-round contributor to the question of capitalism, than many of note in the American economics academic community. You then chose to ignore the contributions of best selling author Ravi Batra, in the field of economics, concerning the sustainability of capitalism (of all things!) on the various theories of Sarkar, as well as not thinking it makes a difference they represent a miniorty view and come from Asia, where Sarkar is much better known as a theoretical critic of Capitalism. I disagree with you and will "request comment" from other editors on your insistence to exclude Sarkar. Ofthe1780s 10:38, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
In Wikipedia we follow Wikipedia's rules. If you want to promote a theory, this is not the place.Ultramarine 10:41, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Exactly. No one should be allowed to steer an article in the direction of their private views, whether it be a "Liberal Market" approach or something else, and exclude other elements not dovetailing to that approach. Wikipedia is not the place for such behaviour. I will initiate the procedure.Ofthe1780s 11:28, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
And in Wikipedia peer-reviewed articles are the most reliable sources and these persons are little cited in them. If you want to change Wikipedia policy, there are other articles for that.Ultramarine 11:33, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
It is clear that this approach to define selection criteria is "too narrow". It is forced reliance on a priviliged debate among intellectuals at the service of a 'former' (Soviet communism) or 'present' (Western capitalism) ruling class agenda and does not reflect developments and currents in the real world sufficiently with an eye to the 'future' of the World. Among students of the potential future global development of Capitalism, Sarkar is a major figure. He early on suggested that both Soviet Communism and Western Capitalism were unsustainable social formations, both from the perspective of global human needs, with two thirds of the worlds children mired in poverty, but also environmental factors, with the ice caps rapidly melting. If you are looking in the journals of present American universities for the cutting edge debate on these issues you would not come across much if any of it. Only if you look into Time Magazine it is possible you may find some nascent recognition of these issues, also reflected in comments of Democrat politicians trying to secure that their candidate reaches the US Presidency in 2008. Because of the self-editing nature of capitalism, in particular in the USA, such critical debate is actively suppressed among the intellectuals in institutions relying on private funding. Even if Dr. Batra achieved best selling authorship in America, his substantial critical contribution has been surpressed through a form of peer 'vilification' or disapproval. I suppose it is a part and parcel of the 'freedom of speech' in ultra-capitalist USA and all that. If this approach of criteria selection is upheld, as you say, it will only serve to show that Wikipedia is a peculiarly American and not global dictionary. Ofthe1780s 11:58, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Again, this is English Wikipedia. If you wnat to change policy, there are other pages for this. Sarker is not cited in peer-reviewed article and Batra's bestseller made him rich but his prediction failed.Ultramarine 12:11, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Your comments reek of bias. Batra is only an advocate of Sarkar's ideas. You are correct that his prediction for a stock crash failed in the USA (but were realised in Japan, followed by a 15 year quiet depression). Even then, I expect you are ignorant of the fact that Batra was the first theoretician in the US to point out the crucial impact of stock appreciation on the dynamics of US Capitalism. His view is that the shift to a fiat driven monetary policy in the 1970s, created the scope for relaxing the previous liquidity constraint for monetary policy. This development is in his view what has saved capitalism. At the same time, the development has created a fearsome balloon of financial leverage, which could implode. Batra is a cutting edge analyst of modern day financial capitalism. Of course, such insights are completely missing from the article. As a result, the article is just a stilted historical piece. It is vacuous when it comes to the real important issues on financial and environmental sustainability. What a farce your editorial approach really is.Ofthe1780s 12:21, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Again, read WP:SOAP. When they are notable in peer-reviewed literature, then they should be included. If you want to change policy, there are other aticles for that.Ultramarine 12:23, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with your position.I think you are conveniently interpreting WP:SOAP in the most narrow conceivable manner. The information is not Propaganda or advocacy of any kind. It is not Self-promotion. Neither is it Advertising. It is part of a living debate in society, and not restricted to the priviliged discourse of US universities. Your ignorance of it is not a valid criteria.Ofthe1780s 12:38, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Again, there are at least tens of thousands of unknown philosophers and economists. Only the most prominent can be included. In Wikipedia and science, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed articles. If you want to dispute Wikipedia policy, this is not the page.Ultramarine 12:42, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Ideas reaching '#1 on a New York Times Best-seller list are notable enough. Ofthe1780s 12:51, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
There are hundreds of books that have done that. Making a failed prediction is not evidence for importance in economics of philosophy, quite the contrary.Ultramarine 12:58, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
These were ideas specific to the development of Capitalism. You are not seriously proposing there has been another non-fiction book in the area of economics that has reached that exalted position of #1 on the NYT best seller list, are you? The failure of the prediction is one thing. The analysis of the system dynamics is quite another. The former was a unique contribution of Batra. The latter was based on the original ideas of Sarkar. Your arguments are self-serving and suggest you are using Wikipedia in violation of WP:SOAP policy.Ofthe1780s 13:02, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Notable theories are cited in peer-reviewed papers. Failed sensational predictions may make the author rich, but is not evidence importance in science.Ultramarine 13:06, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
No need to have a conversation of parrots. See above replies.Ofthe1780s 13:12, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I see no reply. Regarding this deletion, it is a false comparison. This is part of Sarkar's "solution" while what Bentham did was not related to his theories.Ultramarine 13:26, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
This reference you identified concerning the sixten points are behavioural guidelines for the spiritual monks and nuns and social workers of Ananada Marga. As noted, it is part of the Indian episteme, which is 180° different from the Western axiomatic precepts of materialism and individualism leading to optimisation of social outcomes. Those micro-issues are not directly related to the macro-ideas concerning capitalism, but if you want to broaden the discussion on Sarkar by introducing those in the article then that is a wholly different issue. Jeremy Bentham was a scientific materialist and viewed his corpus as worthy of post-mortem study or admiration. It could be considered an aspect of his philosophical approach, which is somewhat creepy. What is it exactly you are proposing for inclusion in the article relating to Sarkar? Please keep in mind the Wikipedia policy of a fair and balanced presentation. Ofthe1780s 14:25, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I see no reason to include what looks like a religous movement. There are numerous such movements, all claiming to have a better soluction to the world's problems, but they are still not notable economic theories.Ultramarine 14:35, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I see no basis for reaching an understanding with you on this issue. The discussion needs to be broadened. Ofthe1780s 14:38, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Unless you can find support for these persons being notable in the academic literature, there is no reason to include them. All religous movements have some views on capitalism, and if including them, then there are many larger movements that should be included first.Ultramarine 14:59, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Your desperate effort to identify new criteria to dismiss the information as irrelevant is interesting. Again, the discussion will need to be broadened. I suggest the first approach is to ask for WP:THIRD.Ofthe1780s 15:03, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
You have still not shown that these are important theories in the academic literatue. Maybe it could have a brief sentence in a section called "Religous views on capitalism" or something similar.Ultramarine 15:07, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry, but you are exhibiting a bias in this discussion, now with regard to the presentation. These ideas, like any idea in principle, need to be presented in their own context and in relation to the discussion in general. To pinpoint the criticism of capitalism - the distributional, financial and environmental imbalances - as religious is not fair or balanced. The solution proposed by Sarkar is based on a acceleration of the spiritual component of life. It is not religious in the sense of a western church, with all due respect, which is lacking in a dynamic spiritual philosophy and practice, with a majority of its western members apparently having been co-opted in the modern matrerialist paradigm of life and no longer really believing the gospel, considering it something akin to a fairy tale. As these ideas clearly come from an philosophical starting point, the Indian episteme, that is alien to you and you clearly do not comprehend, it is not fitting that you describe it. A comparable approach would be to explain earlier capitalist ideas as "Greed-based views on capitalism" or some such caricature. First lets sort out the issue of relevance and notability and then worry about the proper presentation. I will propose WP:THIRD at an early opportunity. Ofthe1780s 15:24, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
The language you use is typical of religous movement, not science. Note that Buddhism and Confucianism are considered religions, despite having some differences to the Abrahamic religions.Ultramarine 15:28, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
This discussion is just a waste of time. Please focus on the language of the proposed text and see if it deviates from the presentation standards of other sections in the article. Ofthe1780s 15:43, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Inclusion of Sarkar

Request for Third opinion WP:THIRD in a disagreement about the inclusion of a sub-section on Sarkar's criticism and solution in the section on Critics of Capitalism in the article on Capitalism.19:54, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

  • Ultramarine argues that this author is not cited enough in US peer-reviewed journal articles in economics to warrant inclusion.
  • Ofthe1780s argues this author is well known in Asia and his ideas have been presented in many books, including one about capitalism that became #1 on New York Times bestseller list in 1987, such that he warrants inclusion.

The bestseller made the false prediction that the western economies would collapse in 1990, followed by seven years depression. The authors and theories are not cited in academic literature. Rather, this is promotion for a minor religious movement, Sarkar's Ananda Marga. The members of the movement are encouraged to follow the Sixteen Points, which includes things such as doing Sadhana (meditation and postures) twice a day, eating a vegetarian diet, abstaining from toxic substances, fasting, doing service to society everday, reading the writings daily, following the moral codes, and attending the weekly group meditations. All religous movements have some views on capitalism, and if they should be included, there are many more important ones.Ultramarine 20:10, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

  • The absurd logic of Ultramarine suggests that theorists of the Catholic faith would be suspect in terms of their views on Capitalism, as the Catholic church prescribes abstinence from sex by its priests, bans them from marrying, bans women from the priesthood, bans the use of contraceptives and abortion, and encourages its members to attend weekly mass and regularly eat the "body" of Christ and drink his "blood" .Ofthe1780s 20:36, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
WP:Undue weight state :

NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Now an important qualification: Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all. For example, the article on the Earth only very briefly refers to the Flat Earth theory, a view of a distinct minority.

We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view, and views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties. This applies not only to article text, but to images, external links, categories, and all other material as well.

Undue weight applies to more than just viewpoints. Just as giving undue weight to a viewpoint is not neutral, so is giving undue weight to other verifiable and sourced statements. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements.

Sarkar's viewpoint doesn't warrant him a subsection which would place him at an equal level of coverage in the dispute as the overall viewpoint of "criticism of capitalism" which give him as much coverage as "the mob" of non notable people like Karl Marx for example.
Joke aside the subsection should obviously be removed as non relevant per WP:Undue weight, the information inside could be merged with the criticism section, or simply removed from this article. To cite Jimbo :
  • If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;
  • If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;
  • If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not.

— Esurnir 20:19, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Esurnir for weighing in. What remains is to judge the weight to assign to Sarkar's ideas. While the viewes are not mainstream, they represent an important contribution. The name of prominent adherents have been provided, such as Ravi Batra, Johan Galtung, Sohail Inayatullah and the nuns and monks of Ananda Marga. Ofthe1780s 20:36, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
A small minority religous movement. At most a single sentence, being generous.Ultramarine 21:26, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Sorry Ultramarine, but the matter can most definitely not be left up to your biased judgement. The issue will only be settled with a broad and POV free discussion. Ofthe1780s 22:59, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Again, there are numerous religious movements, and a small only gets a small space, if anyone at all.Ultramarine 23:08, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Due to stalemate concerning the amount of information or space to be given to Sarkar in this article, I am requesting comment by outside editors.Ofthe1780s 01:05, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the thrust of Esurnir's comments, particularly that Sarkar doesn't deserve a separate section when Marx doesn't have one, though I have some different reasoning. Looking at this historically, Marx's theory spawned a competing economic system for most of a century that competed with capitalist democracy and led to a Cold War that profoundly shaped the history of the 20th century in the superpowers of the time and every other country in the world. By contrast, Sarkar was the leader of a minority movement in India. I leave open the possibility that Sarkar's contribution to theory was equally important, but I haven't seen any sources to prove it. The best one is the NYT bestseller, which was written by someone else and probably sold that well due to the sensational predictions contained within. I don't see any evidence that Sarkar deserves a section other than Ofthe1780s' assertions that he does, which clearly doesn't cut it. Again, baring evidence of pre-existing notability of a leader in the field, his ideas must become notable first, then he gets included in Wikipedia. We're not a vehicle for minority theories to become popular in the Western world.--Chaser - T 20:40, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Extent of information on Sarkar

Request for comment WP:Rfc in a disagreement about the weight given to the inclusion of information about the ideas of P.R. Sarkar in the section on Critics of Capitalism in the article on Capitalism.01:05, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

  • Ultramarine argues that this author is not cited enough in US peer-reviewed journal articles in economics to warrant much if any coverage. He also cites failed prediction of his adherent and his religious ideas as making his contribution suspect.
  • Ofthe1780s argues this author is well known in Asia and his ideas have been widely disseminated, including by 'prominent adherents in e.g. a book about capitalism that became #1 on New York Times bestseller list in 1987. He also notes that contributions of adherents have resulted in notable insights into capitalist dynamics and that his contribution therefore warrants significant coverage.
  • Esurnir has given third opinion above concerning the importance of WP:Undue weight for the consideration, arguing he does not deserve a sub-section giving him equal place to contributors like Karl Marx.

Ofthe1780s is currently blocked for 3RR violation regarding this. The bestseller made the false prediction that the western economies would collapse in 1990, followed by seven years of depression. The authors and the theories are not important in the academic literature. Rather, this is promotion for a minor religious movement, Sarkar's Ananda Marga. The members of the movement are encouraged to follow the Sixteen Points, which includes things such as doing Sadhana (meditation and postures) twice a day, eating a vegetarian diet, abstaining from toxic substances, fasting, doing service to society everday, reading the writings daily, following the moral codes, and attending the weekly group meditations.[1] All religous movements have some views on capitalism, and if they should be included, there are many more important ones. See also Esurnir's comments above, he stated "Joke aside the subsection should obviously be removed as non relevant per WP:Undue weight, the information inside could be merged with the criticism section, or simply removed from this article."Ultramarine 13:20, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

The BBC describes Sarkar's movement as a Hindu religious cult. According to the BBC, "The cult is viewed with suspicion in India due to their unusual lifestyle, including spending time in graveyards and cremation grounds." The Indian supreme court has banned it from staging a dance ritual involving human bones in public.[2]Ultramarine 18:55, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

The BBC also reports from a court case involving an arms drop in India "Prosecution lawyers said weapons on board - which included AK-47 assault rifles, rocket launchers, anti-tank grenades and thousands of rounds of ammunition - were intended for a religious cult in Bengal, the Ananda Marg."[3]Ultramarine 19:39, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

ABOUT THE FALSE RUMOURS BEING SPREAD BY ULTRAMARINE: The history of Sarkar and his Ananda Marga movement is controversial due to a campaign of vilification by corrupt authorities. Sarkar, who was a vocal critic of Communism and Capitalism, ran afoul of both the Marxist led government of Bengal and the oppressive government of Indira Gandhi. Both governments persecuted Sarkar and his followers. The 1982 massacre of 18 AM nuns and monks in Kalkota by a Marxist mob has become stuff of legend. The AM monks and nuns had for some years taken orphans of the streets and put them in schools run by the Ananda Marga Universal Relief Team (AMURT). For this they were accused of being "child stealers" by a mob incited by the leaders of the Marxist government of Bengal, which had become alarmed by the grass roots appeal of AM. The hypocrisy of the very same leaders is amazing, but they had up to that time easily tolerated orphaned children running naked, unprotected and hungry in the streets. These attacks have continued also in the adjacent Bihar region, with peaceful monks being hacked to death by sword wielding illiterate village mobs excited by marxist political organisers. Despite requests, the local government has seen fit to never give protection to the monks and nuns of AM, where they are most active, in the poorest and most destitute regions of India, battling poverty and ignorance at every step. Fortuantely, their good works are slowly changing the situation around, and the official persecution and manipulations have been ruled illegal and stopped. In the 1970s, the federal government of Indira Gandhi made things worse for Sarkar by acting on trumped up murder charges on him and he was unjustly imprisoned for six years. Only during the Emergency (India) in 1978, did Sarkar get a fair trial and was released. In the meantime the Central Bureau of India had sent out information to other intelligence agencies in the West falsely accusing Sarkar and his followers of terrorism. Once such information gets circulated it is hard to eradicate. It is still being spread about this peaceful but vocal humanitarian group. This is the rough and tumble world of politics where visionaries try to make things better but collide with the interests of a selfish few who do anything to retain their grip on power and privilige. By the way, the social system of India is described as State capitalism. The distribution of wealth is the most unequal there in the world. Importantly, the information in the article concerns only the ideas of Sarkar with regard to the inherent nature and dynamic of Capitalism. Specifically, it adds insight into the transformation of industrial into financial capitalism and what system dynamics this may entail, the consequence of which is still unknown. Finally, the information about the religious rites of the hindu religion should be understood for what they are; to teach spiritual aspirtants to overcome fear. It is no more "weird" than the symbolic practice of Christians to "eat" the flesh of Jesus and "drink" his blood. I am not an adherent of AM or Sarkar, but know that this information notable and warrants inclusion, notwithstanding people that trade in unjust and unsubstantiated rumours of vilification about Sarkar and his adherents as a means to suppress it due to their inherent POV in the matter. Ofthe1780s 19:43, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Everything I have stated is sourced, your claims are not.Ultramarine 19:47, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Not everything that gets printed in the press is the truth. A lie that is sourced like that, is still a lie. The information I have shared has been documented but not everything exists on the net. I have followed this case for some time. Ofthe1780s 19:57, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
In Wikipedia personal opinions and claims are not interesting. You need verifiable sources.Ultramarine 19:59, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
This is offered as background information, to rebut the false information spread by you. Again I would like to remind you to keep the focus on the information in the main article and not try to sidetrack that with unrelated information. Do you next want to talk about the intrigue surrounding the Pope and how that affects theories of catholics concerning Capitalism. For instance, was Pope John Paul I murdered? Who murdered the "Banker to God" and why? Who murdered the head of the Pope's bodyguards? etc. Ofthe1780s 20:11, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Again, in Wikipedia you need to use verifiable sources. Otherwise anyone can write anything. Sarkar claim to be a better alternative, so it is obviously intersting what his movement teaches and do in practice. Do you deny that these rituals described above are part of the movement?Ultramarine 20:16, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
What about the Pope? Why don't you go scoure the newspapers for sources on those stories? Ofthe1780s 20:24, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Underhanded behaviour of Ultramarine

My account was blocked for 12 hours on the request of Ultramarine. The way he went about it needs to be flagged for other editors here, to warn them about his underhanded tactics and POV efforts.

  • There were no wholesale reverts performed on my part, just minor modifications of text in the article. The number of minor or partial reverts was below the stated 3 per 24 hour period. One should not count editing of existing text as a revert if it does not change the text of others.
  • Importantly, before the decision to block I had initiated conflict resolution process, first with WP:THIRD and then WP:Rfc as Good faith effort to resolve dispute by involving other editors.
  • The WP:3RR was initiated by Ultramarine during a bi-lateral content dispute, i.e. involving only the two of us. An independent editor commented that he would not have blocked the account on the grounds of the revert warring that was seen. It was not pronounced enough to warrant such an extreme measure.
  • It is clear that Ultramarine has used this WP:3RR tool for political control; to apply pressure on myself as an editor in a content dispute.
  • While my account was blocked, Ultramarine reverted the disputed edits and announced my blocked status on the talk page here as some sort of rationale for subsequent revert-edit activity by him of my insertions.
  • While my account was blocked he then interfered with the WP:Rfc section which should not be altered, with an extreme characterisation, both inflammatory and wrong, of the information about Sarkar.
  • The unmistakable conclusion emerges that Ultramarine is acting in violation of basic Wikipedia Good faith conduct. Ofthe1780s 18:27, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Two different administrators reviewed your editing and concluded that you had broken 3RR.[4]Ultramarine 19:04, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, the editor making the block has now changed his mind [[5]]. Ofthe1780s 22:59, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Your description is misleading. I reported the 3RR violation when Ofthe1780s refused to allow me to add critical material or even insert a disputed template. Much later Ofthe1780s asked for outside opinions (all of which have been critical). Even later he was blocked, it took a very long time between report and block.Ultramarine 23:15, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Certainly, the editor making the block did so well after the conflict resolution process had been initiated and discussed. My account was blocked when that process was well into the second stage WP:Rfc. This does not excuse your questionable tactics in a bi-lateral debate. You resorted to rules of technicality to finagle your POV agenda. Then you pretend to be judge of the appropriateness of a dispute where you are a hostile party. With behaviour like that, is it any wonder the world is filled with cynics? Ofthe1780s 23:25, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
I have no control over the exact time you were blocked, I made my report much earlier. I reported you when you refused to allow me to add critical material, while you yourself continued to add material, and even deleted a disputed template I added.Ultramarine 23:31, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
You have twice asked for outside views regarding your material, and both have been negative.[6][7] Ultramarine 23:34, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
As I explained to you, I removed the template as it was clear the claim you were questioning was valid. Your efforts were clearly motivated to make these ideas questionable, because you disagree with them. You were trying to force reality into the mold of your mind. That is not the criteria for information in Wikipedia. Don´t pretend to be "the victim" here, you are not. Your Talk page is full of statements by other editors to the fact that you are ...well read for yourself: [[8]]. Ofthe1780s 23:48, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
1780s, continuing to attack Ultramarine does nothing to help your case.--Chaser - T 00:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
This matter has been discussed so that lessons can be drawn from it. It is over as far as I am concerned. Ofthe1780s 07:38, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
This pointless bickering brings us no closer to a resolution of this issue. Ofthe1780s, do you have any other sources for your assertion that Sarkar is deserving of inclusion in a separate section of this article? And by the way, as a show of good faith, how about we close this section. I think the title at least is rather poisonous to a civil dialog.--Chaser - T 23:37, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree.Ofthe1780s 23:48, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
You have twice asked for outside views regarding your material, and both have been negative.[9][10] Ultramarine 23:34, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
The WP:Rfc requires more input. Moreover, I have not had time to check the references, but only have your claim these ideas are not referenced in the literature. I will do the research and present my findings here. Ofthe1780s 23:48, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Protected

I have protected the article until disputes over Capitalism#Sarkar.27s_criticism_and_solution can be resolved. This primarily appears to be a dispute between Ultramarine and Ofthe1780s, if anyone is counting heads. Given the amount of talk page text this dispute has already produced, I'm not overly hopeful, but at least we won't fill the history with any more conflict this way.--Chaser - T 19:44, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

  • Since I've since expressed an opinion on this issue, I won't be unprotecting the article. We'll have to find an uninvolved admin.--Chaser - T 20:41, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Postive Suggestion

To my mind this debate sounds like teh spat some while ago about Catholicism, if Sarkar is a religious critic of capitalism, he seems to join a long queue, maybe we could link to him under the para on religious critics as an example of a Hindu critic? That would be proportionate and due weight (after all, he could then stand as an example of Hindu critique, and actually add balance).--Red Deathy 06:41, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Good. There is a significant difference, however. It lies in the fact that Sarkar has outright modern theories of the ills of Capitalism (including the forms of exploitation), notably the Social cycle theory (Sarkar). He also offers a solution Progressive Utilisation Theory. As such he rivals Karl Marx, but differs in that Marx offered an economic analysis. By comparison, Sarkar offered an economic system, Prout. Sarkar's main adherent in the West is Dr. Ravi Batra, a Professor of Economics at Southern Methodist University, who has devoted his lifes work to expounding on these ideas in innumerable economic journals and over twentty books, two of which became bestsellers. His chief contribution may have been to be one of the first to note and analyse the implications of the historic shift from industrial to financial capitalism. The Catholic religion, or more correctly the Bible, is (understandably) much less specific on the nature of the problem of modern capitalism or what should be done to address it. What they do have in common, however, is that Sarkar and Batra are promoting a spiritiual way of life. The church essentially does the same, but as it has effectively been co-opted into the materialistic way of modern life, due to its membership being largely placed in western countries. The teachings of the church therefore now sound out moral guidelines to check the excesses. Sarkar promoted a change in lifestyle and approach to life, via a conscious focus on God. Sarkars adherents follow a yogic lifestyle, etc. Other adherents is the world famous peace sociologist Johan Galtung, who is a big fan of his ideas but not really a follower and Sohail Inayatullah, a leader in the area of futures studies and has written several books and many articles on Sarkar. There are many others, but less notable, I guess. Ofthe1780s 07:34, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm afraid I don't see anything but warmed up social democracy, really, if we grant Sarkar a place we also have to grant social credit a place (which has a much betterdocumented history and evidence of a clear movement behind it), or Parecon, and sundry money cranks aside. Smith, Marx, Keyne and Freidman can all be said to have influenced the world economy in very direct and measurable ways. Anyway, I suggest otehr editors consider my suggestion.--Red Deathy 08:00, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Why rely on a quick summary highlighting similiarities or differences. Why not go the source. You could begin by checking out the links to his theory and solution. Ofthe1780s 08:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
This is the third editor, not counting me, who has argued that the material should at best be drastically reduced.[11][12]Ultramarine 09:26, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Red Deathy. The current section gives Sarkar undue weight. As the article stands now, he receives significantly more article space than Karl Marx, Frantz Fanon, Vladimir Lenin, Mao Zedong, Leon Trotsky Benjamin Tucker, Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, Mikhail Bakunin, Peter Kropotkin, Murray Bookchin, Rudolf Rocker, and Noam Chomsky combined. I don't think anyone can legitimately argue his criticisms are more relevant or significant than the combined work of those listed above. At most Sarkar should be appear by name among the list of religious critics. C thirty-three 14:49, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Ofthe1780s, if I request unprotection, will you agree to a drastically pared down reference to Sarkar?--Chaser - T 15:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
OK. I'll make a first pass at scaling it back to a few lines. Unless someone objects to that, we can also drop the reference to Sarkar in the introduction, remove the photo and include the information about him in the general critics section. Ofthe1780s 19:35, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
What is your proposed text? Ultramarine 19:43, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Revised information about Sarkar

The Indian philosopher P.R. Sarkar suggested Capitalism was a social formation run by an acquisitive elite that resulted in a progressive maldistribution of wealth, harming the disadvantaged sections of society. His proposed solution is Prout whereby the focus of social organisation is shifted from unstable investment to sustainable consumption. An adherent of Sarkar, bestselling author Dr. Ravi Batra is an early proponent of the the historic development shift of industrial to financial capitalism, emphasizing financial instability and social transformation. Ofthe1780s 20:13, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it's still too long (no one else gets an entire paragraph). I suggest this: The Indian philosopher P.R. Sarkar also suggested that capitalism causes a progressive maldistribution of wealth, harming the disadvantaged sections of society. His proposed solution is Progressive Utilisation Theory (PROUT) whereby the focus of social organisation is shifted from unstable investment to sustainable consumption.--Chaser - T 20:56, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, a few lines more or less is not what matters. If you are concerned about a balanced presentation, please consider that Sarkar made an original contribution to the theoretical analysis of Capitalism (Social cycle theory) and its solution (Prout). What original theoretical contribution/solution came from the noted linguist Noam Chomsky or many of the interpreters of Marx? Batra is a major interpreter of Sarkar and innovator on his ideas. He definitely deserves mention as a modern critic of capitalism, too. If necessary, why not add more insight to the ideas of Chomsky or the interpreters of Marx for the required balance, if that is the real issue. Ofthe1780s 21:44, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Chaser, however, I think the religious aspect should be mentioned. How about "The Indian philosopher P.R. Sarkar and founder of the Hindu Ananda Marga movement is another critic. His proposed solution is the Progressive Utilisation Theory" Batra is not notable, also mentioning him could be interpreted subtle advertising for his never-ending series of books with failed predicitons.Ultramarine 22:07, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Again, I don´t agree with your summary. In his 2005 book, "Greenspan's Fraud: How Two Decades of His Policies Have Undermined the Global Economy", Batra argues that fiat based monetary easing in past decades has kept the global financial bubble inflated. He is still of the firm conviction that Financial Capitalism is inherently flawed and that it will one day burst. His 2007 book, "The New Golden Age: The Coming Revolution against Political Corruption and Economic Chaos" is further testament to his conviction. You may consult on 90 of his books published in English, French, Japanese, etc. here [[13]]. He is notable for his insights and achievements notwithstanding the significant failures, perhaps dues also to his intellectual perserverance. Ofthe1780s 22:22, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Ultramarine's text sounds good, and hits all the salient points *for this article* interested readers can follow the links to find out about Sarkar & PROUT. tehre are many original and hardworking economists living today, we can't mention them all, we have to look to whose work has had a *worldwide* audience and practical impact - I mean, we don't even give Smith and Ricardo their own sections much though they may warrant them. Could Batra claim to have influence explicitly any government?--Red Deathy 07:07, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
You guys seem to have objections to what Batra has to say. That indicates a POV reason for your editorial suggestions concerning him. Batra has testified before a committee of the US Congress. He has been a frequent guest on all major US networks (NBC, CBS, CNN, MNBC, etc). He has been featured in most major news papers and magazines. He has been awarded the "Medal of the Italian Senate" for his accurate 1978 prediction of the downfall of Communism. There is a PROUT research insititute in Venesuela, where Hugo Chavez rules. Whether you agree or disagree with him, he is the epitomy of the "hardworking and original economist". Ofthe1780s 08:31, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
The article has no place for almost all of the Nobel prize winners in economics, so there is no reason to provide free advertisement to an author who has become rich by regularly making failed doomsday predictions.Ultramarine 08:38, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Just to be clear, this is an article about Capitalism and not economics. Unless said Nobel laureats offered original theories about the dynamics and validity of Capitalism they don´t deserve a place in this article. However, they would certainly deserve their own page and mention in an article on economics or their economic theory. Sarkar has made original theories in this regard and offered a solution to the ills of capitalism he perceived. Batra has innovated on those ideas. As such, they differ a lot from run of the mill economists who just rely of earlier theories on capitalism. Ofthe1780s 18:17, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Ofthe1780s Per WP:ASSUME we haven't accused you of POV pushing, and by the same token I think you should accept out bona fides as very differently perspectived editors testing the material you want included. In all good faith, I can't see a reason to give Sarkar more than a passing reference, nor Batra any reference that couldn't go to the lieks of Barrett Brown or the head of the Economics department at my university. you've put your evidence and it isn't entirely convincing, I'm afraid.--Red Deathy 09:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
With all due respect, who has ever heard of Barrett Brown? Again, this is not an article about economics or economists, so run of the mill economists are not of interest here unless they have made an original contribution regarding capitalist dynamics. Please be clear on this point. Batra's failed predictions were considered an important test of the stability properties of the system. If the stability properties were as weak as he suggested, the continuation of this social formation would be in doubt. If anything, the system has shown itself to be very resilient. At the same time, financial leverage has multiplied almost of an exponential order. Many economists are becoming concerned about this. Batra is still convinced a big day of reckoning is ahead for the system. Will he be ultimately be rpoven right after having been so spectacularly wrong so far? Only time will tell. Still the issue he has developed, well before Hyman Minsky´s interesting book "Can It Happen Again?" is of penultimate importance for the future of Capitalism. If you still think the head of your economics department is as important for understanding modern capitalist dynamics as Batra is, then please share with us his name. I´m sure I'm not the only one to be quite interested to learn more about his or her ideas. Ofthe1780s 18:17, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
His point was that such economists shouldn't be included, but in any case there are significant overlaps between economics and capitalism. As to Batra, I think the appropriate time to include him in this article would be when his predictions prove correct, which hasn't happened yet.--Chaser - T 18:59, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Response to RfC

  • Disagree that Sarkar should be given much prominence. The critique by the Pope - successive Popes actually - mentioned above is much more important to include. Sarkar is known to far fewer people than Marx or the Pope. Maybe that is unjust, but it is a fact and WP is not the place to correct injustices. Itsmejudith 15:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
This is the fouth editor, not counting me, who has argued that the material should at best be drastically reduced.[14][15][16] Ofthe1780s has asked for a third opinoin and a RfC. No other editors support him. Ofthe1780s will probably continue to argue for his belief forever. However, the page cannot stay protected forever. I suggest we consider the case closed and unprotect the page.Ultramarine 18:31, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Headcount

All the voting is evil stuff notwithstanding, I've just done a headcount. Ofthe1780s clearly favors a separate section for Sarkar. Those opposed include

  1. Esurnir - "the subsection should obviously be removed as non relevant per WP:Undue weight, the information inside could be merged with the criticism section, or simply removed from this article"
  2. C33 - "At most Sarkar should be appear by name among the list of religious critics." (emphasis in original)
  3. Red Deathy - "Ultramarine's text sounds good, and hits all the salient points *for this article*" (emphasis in original)
  4. Itsmejudith - "Disagree that Sarkar should be given much prominence."
  5. Ultramarine, who proposes "The Indian philosopher P.R. Sarkar and founder of the Hindu Ananda Marga movement is another critic. His proposed solution is the Progressive Utilisation Theory".
  6. And myself, Chaser. By this diff, I indicate my agreement with Ultramarine's proposal.

I think we've argued this issue to death, and I don't see many people changing their minds to believe that there should be a section in this article for Sarkar (or mention of Batra, for that matter). I'm ready to ask for unprotection if 1780s will agree to end the discussion here and abide by the consensus that we have obtained on this discussion page.--Chaser - T 18:59, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm opposing any mention of Sarkar here. We can't mention all people who oppose (or support) capitalism. -- Vision Thing -- 19:10, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Just to make sure I don't create any misimpressions, the purpose of the headcount was to get a gauge of opinion after people had already discussed things. We're still not voting on whether to include the reference.--Chaser - T 19:17, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
  • So be it. Ofthe1780s 20:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

reference problem

The reference formatting is messed up. I can't find out what is the root of it -- someone please fix. John Riemann Soong 15:50, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Foot-notes are now displayed again. --Schwalker 08:42, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Change to remove a sneeky vandalism

{{editprotected}} Can an administrator swap the actual revision to the one I made on a temp page.

The change is minor and it is made to replace the actual reference that a vandal completly messed up (without being seen for quite some time :-s) - Esurnir 20:37, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Done. Cheers. --MZMcBride 20:50, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Ongoing Sarkar stuff

I trimmed the sentence on Sarkar, after viewing it in place because, it 1 Contained three wikilinks to closely interlinked articles anyway; 2) In the context of Catholic Churches, Protestent congregations, the movement is more significant ; and 3) Because Sarkar is prominently placed on the PROUT and Ananda Marga pages, and so seemed the easiest thing to trim. Also, when I have a spare movement, the web references 9at least one of them) seem to link to book adverts, so it might be easier to cut out the middle man and just refference the book with a book cite rather than a web site cite.--Red Deathy 11:43, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

  • This is becoming amusing. Red Deathy is clearly on a mission to water down or obfuscate the Sarkar entry. Consider this. The web page with a link to the book "After Capitalism: Prout's Vision for a New World" by Dada Maheshvarananda shows that the book has been read by Hugo Chavez, who then later invited the author to give a talk about PROUT to the Petroleum Industry in Venezueal. So a clear political connection is there. This book has also received glowing reviews by some famous people like Noam Chomsky (himself a noted critic of Capitalism), as well as clergy, authors and politicians. There are contributions of non-AM authors in the books. As for the reception please check out some of the comments:
“Alternative visions are crucial at this moment in history. Prout’s cooperative model of economic democracy, based on cardinal human values and sharing the resources of the planet for the welfare of everyone, deserves our serious consideration.” – Noam Chomsky, professor of linguistics at Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), author of more than 70 books and 1000 published articles.
“After Capitalism is refreshingly original. It is spiritual and utopian while remaining grounded in reality. Its analysis is intelligent and its vision inspiring.” – Howard Zinn, author of the best-selling A People’s History of the United States
“An important contribution to re-thinking the disastrous course of the current economic globalization.” – Hazel Henderson, economist, author of Beyond Globalization

The following people also give favourable reviews:

    • Frei Betto, Dominican friar, activist and author of more than 40 books, including the bestseller Fidel and Religion
    • Leonardo Boff, Brazilian author and one of the founders of Liberation Theology
    • Marcos Arruda, Brazilian economist and author
    • Father Marcelo Barros, Benedictine monk, theologian and Bible expert, author of 25 books
    • Jim Consedine, New Zealand Coordinator, Restorative Justice Network
    • Prof. Patrus Ananias, co-founder of the popular Brazilian Workers’ Party and former mayor of Belo Horizonte
    • Maria Dirlene Trindade Marques professor of economics, feminist, president of the Economists’ Union and coordinator of the State Committee of the World Social Forum
    • Nada Khader, Executive Director, Westchester People's Action Coalition
    • Nicky Hager, author, New Zealand
    • Carlos Minc, Brazilian ecologist, author and state congressman
    • Father Henrique de Moura Faria, Coordinator of the Inter-Religious Political Forum of Belo Horizonte
    • Rogério Correio, Brazilian state congressman

Many authors who are not monks or nuns of Ananda Marga have written many books and articles about the ideas of Sarkar. It is therefore unambiguously clear that Sarkars ideas are being promoted by people outside of Ananda Marga. The other link, [Prout World] shows glowing appraisals of the contribution of Sarkar, including this:

"P.R. Sarkar was one of the greatest modern philosophers of India."
- Giani Zail Singh, former President of India

The conclusion is that Sarkar should definitely be mentioned in the text, which is in line with an agreement reached here after substantial discussion. Ofthe1780s 18:20, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Regarding this paragraph: this feels uncomfortably like an end-run around the consensus established earlier that a single sentence or two in the criticism section was enough coverage of Sarkar. Instead there is now a new paragraph in the lead prominently mentioning him as a critic in the same league as Marx, which I don't think has been shown. I also favor removing this paragraph. This isn't just an opinion, it's a matter of giving Sarkar undue weight, which is a policy consideration.--Chaser - T 17:44, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Agree.Ultramarine 17:47, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Sarkar began presenting his ideas in 1950s. He died in 1990. His ideas appear to be in the early take-off phase. These ideas are multi-dimensional spanning economics, environment, human happiness, historical evolution, etc.. Hugo Chavez, a political leader of third world nations critical of capitalism, is a big fan of Sarkar's ideas. So is Noam Chomsky, a famous US critic of Capitalism. As was the late President of India, Giani Zail Singh. The list goes on and on. Of course, as Sarkar was anti-capitalist while defying easy modern university categorisation, he is not really appreciated by many American editors on Wikipedia, who seem to share an insular and arrogant approach rooted in their narrow academic training. What gives Sarkar a special status is that he was equally critical of Communism as he was of Capitalism and predicted the demise of both social formations. I don´t care how you edit this article. Remove what you want as a reference to him. Justify it any way you can. Better yet delete all the material on Sarkar and his ideas. It would be a big triumph. A confederacy of dunces makes precious little difference for the the importance or evolution of these ideas.Ofthe1780s 20:59, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I guess that's the end of it, then.--Chaser - T 21:27, 22 June 2007 (UTC)