Talk:Calligraphy

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calligraphy is also a great piece of art

Contents

[edit] Distinguish Traditional from Simplified

Added this section: "Kǎishū simplified Chinese script was created by the Chinese communist government after World War 2, in order to promote simplification of writing and increase the literacy rate. Simplified script is often considered a corruption of general Hanzi text and is not used in calligraphy." Intranetusa 17:23, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

This is far too biased. Simplified Chinese is in fact used in some forms of calligraphy, and mentioning "communist" is unnecessary, since simplification was being researched by the Nationalists before the foundifdsgsfdgsgdsfgfgsfgsdfgsdng of the PRC. 129.97.59.174 (talk) 15:43, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

So fix it! ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:30, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reorganization

I suggest for a reorganzation on a large scale: Calligraphy by itself is a page that just provides a definition, and links to specific pages:

  • Chinese Calligraphy
  • Japanese Calligraphy
  • European Calligraphy
  • Hebrew Calligraphy
  • Arabic Calligraphy

And move the contents from here and expand on them.

Also, under each calligraphy, I suggest for each to have sections on the forms and hands they have, for example Chinese Calligraphy

  • Fast hand
  • Standard hand
  • ...etc.

European Calligraphy

  • Foundation Hand
  • Carolingian Hand
  • Italics Hand
  • Copperplate Hand
  • ...etc.

Adding the "hand" behind the subject can also keep the confusion between Copperplate(printing method) and Copperplate(Calligraphy style).

Just a suggestion. --Timmy 03:23, 29 December 2005 (UTC)


Timmy, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc calligraphy all use similar styles and hanzi texts, and should be grouped as a single style. Intranetusa 17:23, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Splitting suggestions

I think this article needs to be worked out and split since all of these subjects could definitely be expanded upon and there are other articles related that cannot be done justice to on a single page for all calligraphy. gren 08:45, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

The article WAS split up into a few articles, but then someone merged them all back in. I'd fully support splitting them out again.-℘yrop (talk) 17:23, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
I agree it should be --NEWUSER|CARPEDIEM (talk) 19:17, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
I think that there should be a split too. I'd love to see someone who knows a lot about Arabic calligraphy and asian calligraphy expand on those topics - it truly is fascinating and each of the different scripts deserve a page each devoted to them. Mixing the Kanji/Chinese characters with the Arabic really is confusing to the eyes :) --NathanO 07:26, 15 August 2005 (UTC)


The East Asian section states: "Calligraphy has influenced most major art styles in East Asia, including sumi-e, a style of Chinese and Japanese painting based entirely on calligraphy." How, exactly, is sumi-e based entirely on calligraphy? While sumi-e does share the same instruments with calligraphy, some of the general philosophy and sometimes contain calligraphy in the paintings, it seems quite a stretch to call it based entirely on calligraphy. I'm tempted to remove the line. Is there any support for that? Uly 22:49, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Splitting

possible form of the split

I don't think we need a page like East Asian calligraphy or Middle Eastern calligraphy do we? They can be sections with intros on the calligraphy. gren 20:32, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

The way they were before they were merged was East Asian calligraphy, Arabic calligraphy, and Western calligraphy. Japanese and Chinese calligraphy are involved with each other enough to warrant their being put together, but i won't complain if they're not.
As for Western calligraphy: maybe European calligraphy? -℘yrop (talk) 00:04, May 30, 2005 (UTC)
Oh, we never got this going. The problem is this article is written towards Islamic calligraphy.. which isn't necessarily Arabic calligraphy... it's more narrow in some cases... and more broad in others (could include Persian Qur'ans no?) gren 03:42, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There is redundancy between this article and Chinese calligraphy, it's a bit annoying. gbog 15:29, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

How about placing sections on calligraphy in articles about the respective scripts- Chinese character, Latin alphabet and Arabic alphabet? Dewrad 12:35, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Dividing according to script is the only sensible way of splitting this article. There are many scripts written calligraphically besides Chinese, Arabic, and Latin, there is also Tibetan and Hebrew, and others. I think a summary of each category and a link to a main article seems appropriate for the longer sections. --Yodakii 13:23:56, 2005-09-06 (UTC)

[edit] A main article for script as a style of handwriting

Is hand synonymous to script? Script is used in the article to refer to the styles.

There is a need for an article having the status of the main article describing script in this sense. Many articles now (such as Blackletter) incorrectly link script to writing system. But, well, the writing system is unique among the styles: it's Roman alphabet.

For now, I'll just redirect those incorrect links I have come across to script (styles of handwriting), and it in its turn redirect to this article. Perhaps someone has better ideas.

Regards,--Imz 20:21, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

It turned out that there is a "continuum" of meaning between writing system and a style of writing, for example, it's hard to tell whether it is more appropriate to call Beneventan script a styel of writing as some other "scripts" or a writing system based on Roman alphabet. (That's due to special conventions of denoting skipped letters etc.)--Imz 21:01, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

In my experience, "script" is British usage and "hand" is American with the same meaning. Writing style is also used to mean hand or script. However, writing system refers to a set of characters used to write a spoken language -- such as Roman letters, Cyrillic letters, Chinese ideographs, etc. Katoto 04:11, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How to section by Kunal Bhalla

Regarding Calligraphy as a hobby Revision as of 23:21, 6 January 2006, by user Kunal Bhalla.

Kunal, since you don't have a user page or talk page I can only leave a message here on the Calligraphy talk page. I can appreciate your effort and motivation, but unfortunately this kind of material is an example of What Wikipedia is not. Please refer to this help page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Wikipedia_is_not Down the page is the heading; Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information

The text specifically says:

"Instruction manuals - while Wikipedia has descriptions of people, places, and things, Wikipedia articles should not include instruction - advice (legal, medical, or otherwise), suggestions, or contain "how-to"s. This includes tutorials, walk-throughs, instruction manuals, video game guides, and recipes. Wikibooks is a Wikipedia sister-project which is better suited for such things."

Sorry, but this article is supposed to be an objective factual description of what calligraphy is, not how to perform calligraphy. On that basis your How To section does not belong and intend I remove to it in 48 hours from the time of this post. If you or other Wikipedians would like to remove the section sooner, don't wait for me. Arbo 10:59, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How To section removed

Okay, it's done. To preserve the section I've posted it here, below. According to Wiki help articles this kind of material is better off in Wikibooks. Arbo 12:50, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I think that the assertion that calligraphy has been rendered "defunct" is wildly overstated. I agree that the section extracted below is best covered in a good textbook or via good tuition from a calligraphy teacher. The classes link out can be used to find one. Some restraints apply to the advertising of particular books on Wikipedia itself and there may be as many favourite beginner's books as there are calligraphers so to speak. My approach to this page is simply to present a competent introduction to the subject that points people in good directions for assistance.≈ Furminger ≈ 15 April 2007.

[edit] Calligraphy as a hobby

Though Calligraphy has now been rendered defunct due to the advent of printing and computers, as a hobby and an art, it is one of the best. Calligraphy requires a steady hand and builds concentration. An inclination towards art, sketching or painting can also help.

Printing originated in 1542 or thereabouts - it has never superceded nor made calligraphy defunct. Many legal documents royal decrees, and especially from the crown office of Her Majesty are still written by professional calligraphers, whose historically correct title is 'scribe'.Zenpen 00:14, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Materials Required

For beginners, a set of calligraphy pens (fountain or otherwise) of different nib sizes, a few coloured inks (according to your personal choice), smooth paper, pencil, scale, etc. and a large board (optional) are required.

[edit] Getting Started

  • Set up your board at a comfortable angle, possibly by leaning it against a few thick books. Attach the writing paper onto it using tape or clips.
  • Ruling up: Select your style- uncial, Italics, Gothic Black, though for beginners the foundational alphabet is the best. Try to avoid Gothic on your first try. These styles can be easily obtained on the internet. See the corresponding x-height (the number of nib widths high a letter is), select a nib size and rule up.
  • Writing: Holding the nib at the specified nib angle (eg. 300 for uncials), try writing a few letters using smooth strokes. Very few styles use continuous strokes, mainly, you will have to draw a stroke, lift your pen up, select the next appropriate position and continue.

Note: Dip your pen in ink after every letter to maintain the shade of the ink.

The study of uncial lettering from medieval manuscripts from the Britsih Library collection (lindisfarne etc) shows that the pen angle is 0 degrees, commonly called a 'flat pen angle' Zenpen 00:14, 9 June 2007 (UTC) Using a good quality carbon based ink, for example chinese or japanese stick, or good proprietary brands will give consistency of colour, maintain the shade of ink and dispense with the need to dip the nib after every letter. This interrupts the flow of writing and makes letters blobby. The professional scribe never dips, prefering instead to apply the ink by brush to the underside of the nib or quill. Zenpen 00:14, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Transferring

While carrying out projects you might find it better to write out your text on a plain, ruled up sheet, cutting out the word, and rerranging them to choose the best layout. On doing so, you have an accurate idea of what goes where without any error in the end. Stick these slips in the correct places and shade the back of this sheet using a dark pencil (2B onwards). Using a light, hard pencil (HB or lower) go through the middle of each stroke after keeping your sheet on the final paper. This will transfer faint strokes onto the second sheet. Go over these with the light pencil if required and then finish by writing again with a pen.

[edit] Tips

  1. Avoid using fountain pens as they rarely give a dark and even ink colour, though they are easier to handle.
  2. Try using different coloured inks for a beautiful effect. Use gold and silver ink lightly to avoid a gaudy effect.
  3. You can transfer the outlines of letters thus allowing you to use a brush to fill it in. You can thus carry out calligraphy on T-shirts, ceramic bowls, glasses etc. using appropriate paints.

Best of luck!

[edit] Whis is "western" at the bottom?

I suggest doing it in alphabetical order; (I(slam) before H(ewbrew)? And rename Western "European". Ksenon 17:44, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Not to be petty, but America is not Europe, calligraphy isn't entirely dead. Therefore "Western" may not be the best choice, but it is more inclusive. This also holds true as far as Russia is concerned. The primary problem with "European" is that it is difficult to limit geographically while being inclusive of the applicable writing systems. Angrynight 04:30, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps by script is best, i.e. Latin, Cyrillic, etc. Angrynight 16:41, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tibet

I added a modest section on Tibetan calligraphy. It was essentially a foundation for further editing. I'm surprised that with all the talk about Tibet the section didn't already exist.

Sincerely,

Mbrutus 02:33, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Celtic Fringe" is derogatory term

In relation to items such as the Book of Kells, reference is made to the Celtic fringe. Many consider this term to be derogatory, as is mentioned in the article on Celtic nations. This term is often used to imply that the concerns of these peoples can be dismissed as being as politically peripheral as the regions they inhabit are geographically peripheral relative to the European landmass - a patently absurd and offensive equation.

Sorry if this seems nit-picking but what would be an appropriate temr with which to replace it? "Celtic nations"? The "insular Celts"?

User:pclive 13:06, 21 June 2006 (BST)

[edit] Photo poorly notated

The picture Mifu01.jpg in the Chinese Calligraphy section clearly displays Japanese calligraphy. To my understanding, Chinese does not use phonetic letters, which are clearly displayed in the picture, and Japanese does. Unless someone can explain the photo better, it should be removed because it is a poor example of Chinese calligraphy.

Ernieefiii 13:28, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

That isn't Japanese calligraphy at all; it's recognizably and legibly Chinese. I'm not sure where your misunderstanding comes from.

[edit] External links?

Please see WP:EL for a description of what is recommended that we link to, and what it is not. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 14:16, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Western Calligraphy

[edit] British Isles

I have changed the phrase "in what is now the British Isles and Ireland" in the Western section to say just "the British Isles". This is a geographic, not a political designation. The British Isles have become the British Isles on geological, not historical, timescales, so using the term "in what is now" is inappropriate in the context of this article. Distinguishing Ireland from the rest of the British Isles when talking about geography rather than politics is a misleading and inaccurate neologism that has arisen through a combination of casual misinformation and misguided partisan zeal. ≈ pclive ≈ you aren't being clear on why you changed it. please make your explanation more accessible, or revert the article.

[edit] Font and Script

What is the difference between cooperplate font and cooperplate script? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vishakha241 (talk • contribs) 04:34, 14 December 2006 (UTC).

  • A font is a set of glyphs which are arranged to make writing. For example, a matched set of movable type, or a TrueType font file describing the letters of the alphabet in a way your computer can use to make words.
    A script is a style of handwriting.
    "Cooperplate" is probably a misspelling of copperplate, which was originally neither a font nor a script, but rather an engraving style (engraving in copper plates, in fact), which inspired scripts, and later fonts. (Gleef 15:00, 25 July 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Definition of Calligraphy

An example of scrolls applied to the letter 'S'. From 17th century Germany.
An example of scrolls applied to the letter 'S'. From 17th century Germany.

The article appears to define calligraphy as hand-written, and contrasts it with typography. However, it completely ignores engraved and wood-cut calligraphy. Under western calligraphy, it skips straight from the middle ages to the late 19th century, ignoring several centuries of evolving lettering art. I'd like to suggest the accompanying picture, and I could also scan a page from George Bickham's The universal penman. --Vlmastra 22:40, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Eventually, it would be best to split the articles into separate spin-off articles, as per Wikipedia:Content forking. This is a fascinating subject, and each section is deserving its own article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:36, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Referencing system

It would be wise to stick with one referencing method, rather than two. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:33, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Minor Point

"the art of beautiful writing"

Beauty is subjective, and this does not seem entirely appropriate for Wikipedia. Some may consider calligraphy vulgar or ostentatious; although it is nonetheless still an art.

If you refer to the beginning of the article, you will read that the word calligraphy comes from a Greek origin; and the word actually means "beautiful writing". Kwork 20:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Siddham Calligraphy

I'd like to add some info on Siddhaṃ calligraphy. The script is Indian (a derivative of the Gupta script), but the art is only practiced in Japan these days - mainly in the Shingon School. So where should I put it? India or East Asia? Thanks. mahaabaala 19:09, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I think you should add it in the Indian section if it use Indian alphabet, but you have to notice the fact that this tradition is keep living in Japan. Yug 14:21, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks mahaabaala 08:37, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Western Calligraphy recent improvements

Hello, I "leaded" this recent improvement despite my bad english. You can help by :

  • completing the red links,
  • copy this historical section in the article "Western calligraphy", and expand it there ;
  • expanding the English script (calligraphy) article (a cursive font style use in the eighteen century in England, and then spread to the world).

Yug (talk) 17:36, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion Precedes Tampering

Hello, I think the sections are currently to short, and need to be rewrite in a better way. Yug (talk) 09:29, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I really object to the major hacking of the Western Calligraphy section recently. Western Calligraphy had been split into a separate page which is fine so long as the general page is still credible. It is not adequate to be quoting solely from a single textbook and retaining the detaimled rteference section at thye end of the page when they relate to the material that was split off. I don't think that it is the rigfht time to split the pages as most people will come looking under the general heading of calligraphy and besides the comparative outlook of the page is one of its best features. A big rewriting was not required, what is required is the best efforts of those well qualified to enhance the credibility of the page. Furminger 21 October 2007

I agree, it's better to use several books, and you are welcome to add sources to the current Western section.
But we are here [in the article Calligraphy] doing a presentation, an introduction with a basic level. Your text was too "expert like" and too long for this "Calligraphy" article which have to introduce with a friendly level about 8 to 10 kind of Calligraphies. Your contribution had here a level too hight for the local need. Your long and expert text is more welcome in a specialized article. Yug (talk) 09:22, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Western Calligraphy : comments by MicPowell (2007, 5 october)

Hello MicPowell and many thanks for you comments. I notice you that :

  • articles should not contain authors signatures ;
  • articles should not contain "talk like" texts, anwering to the previous sections : you can simply modify the false statements (and cite your sources if possible).

Accordingly, I have quickly move your comments here. You can copy them, delete your signature, improve their redaction to look like an encyclopedic article, and merge your knowledge directly inside the current article text (without signature).

All my encouragement for your first edits on Wikipedia ^__^y Yug (talk) 22:50, 13 October 2007 (UTC)\

Bellow, the comments in question :

Western Writing is not confined to Western Calligraphy which is a 19th Century naive notion, as formal scripts ususlly called Chancery are not premissed on being calligraphic. Further the alphabet is not Roman but a consensus International in intent. For example according to PBS, the letter A came from Mesopatemia as a counting figure for a head of cattle which was the first international unit of exchange and there to the first Stock Market. In Egypt scribes took dictation during the time of the Pharos and thus 'K' is the pictograph for Knubus the god the underworld,hence a dogs head with it's yap open. Note Khatho-hegia, Kufe,Krissant could not be spelt so in Rome which had no k. The North Africans starting with Egypt also introduced the letter 'h' for Isis ergo a cats head with whiskers. This and more are the assertions of a Spaniard Writing Master from the Italic Peroid named Juan Yciar, who published a work called Recoplacion Subtilissima.

The earliest Monasteries sprung up out of North Africa and what brought about the Punic War was violation of jurisdictional claims at a time when North Africa had the largest know merchantile fleet. Thus it's natural that such trade venues would encourage a smooth and natural mannor of writing unlike Imperalist Roma. Thus the want of Calligraphers and Typesetters may feed on the Roman geometric writing forms but the history of western writing is influenced more by the North African Uncial. The Carolin in this contex is of almost no merit,and the Monasterial scripts such as the Benevethian and Corbals hold only regional nuances.--MicPowell 21:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

The London School for Arts & Crafts was instrumental in the Modern Calligraphic Movement despite the fact that the Royal Acadmey rejected the proposal for a Chair for Writing Masters in 1767. As a direct result along with Typsets dominance over Engraving the quality of penned work has declined drastically and the skill of those bygone days is near and probably soon to be lost.--MicPowell 22:35, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cyrillic caligraphy

Maybe somebody knowledgeable could add something about the cyrillic calligraphy? WOW (talk) 14:49, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

That would be a worthy addition. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:20, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Warning

This misleading edit will have to be corrected. 210.203.61.15 (talk) 20:18, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Reason: simplified characters were already existant for centuries as quick way of writting or local version of a character. In 1956, the communist didn't invented a new style, they simply picked up the easiest existing variants of each characters, and set this variant to the statut of rule to follow.
Anyway, ALL ARE KAISHU STYLE. The 8 basic strokes stay the sames, we don't change of style. 210.203.61.15 = 220.135.4.212 (talk), Taipei. 17:48, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hebrew calligraphy

I want to let editors know that I plan to add a section to the article on Hebrew calligraphy, so that the addition will not come as a surprise. But it is not clear to me how the sections of the article are organized; and, therefore, I am not sure where the Hebrew section would be located. Is the material arranged geographically, going from East to West? Malcolm Schosha (talk) 21:27, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Don't be worry for that, myself or an other can change its place within in 10 seconds.
For a good looking/plan, you can take a look to both Chinese and Western calligraphy sections, which are the "Feature sections" in this articles. Your section is welcome ! Yug 17:30, 21 April 2008 (UTC)