Talk:Caerleon

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	Caerleon is part of WikiProject King Arthur, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to King Arthur, the Arthurian era and related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
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[edit] County

Owain, why are you deleting things without giving a reason? I fail to understand your overwhelming desire to add a reference to Monmouthshire. As Caerleon has more recently been included in Gwent it is more logical to note this than an even older county. My solution: skip the information about past counties. There are more useful things that could be said in an encyclopaedia entry.

What's the point in a reference to a defunct administrative area? Traditional counties continue to exist as geographical references, which are quite handy when you're explaining where a place is. See Traditional counties of Wales Owain 13:05, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Gwent is also a traditional county, and is just as much a geographical reference as Monmouthsire. It also has the advantage of not being confused with a current area with the same name. By the way, referencing something you yourself wrote hardly backs up your argument. For a better reference try googling for Caerleon + Gwent and Caerleon + Monmouthshire - you get slightly more hits for the former, which I think is a good indication of where people think it is. Why not leave both out? It's not as if it is unclear where its position is. Rls 00:50, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I'm afraid Gwent is NOT a traditional county. That phrase has a specific meaning - i.e. the county names and boundaries that exist separately of local government administrative counties. I didn't write the page on traditional counties myself, I've just contributed to it! How is Gwent a geographical reference? The defunct local government area was totally different to the original Early British Kingdom of the same name. As for the Google search, you must know that they are the least scientific way to prove anything. Where people think they are is largely influenced by the Royal Mail's bizarre Postal counties of the United Kingdom, which they've thankfully got rid of. By all means leave it out, but realise the difference between traditional counties and former administrative areas. Owain 11:51, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction

Wikipedia:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements states that in an article introduction "The county and home nation must be mentioned". Walgamanus 15:37, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The county of Caerleon is Newport and it is governed by Newport City Council. If you want to read about the history of the Monmouthshire, Gwent, etc. it should be on the Newport article. None of the other articles for the districts of Newport mention Monmoutshire or Gwent. Marky-Son 15:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Newport is a city and a principal area, not a county. Caerleon is in the preserved county of Gwent. It used to be in the historic county of Monmouthshire (and some would argue still is). This information is given in the article's infobox. Walgamanus 18:03, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Newport used to be a county borough, are you implying a city has a lesser status than a county borough? Feel free to add the county for all the other districts of Newport, plus Cardiff, Bristol, Birmingham etc, otherwise I don't see why this is neccessary. If it used to be in Gwent, why does the article say it IS in Gwent? I've looked all other towns that were in Gwent and none of them mention Gwent in the opening paragraph. Marky-Son 19:46, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Newport's present status is a principal area with a city council. I would appreciate more information on its former county borough status. As members of the WikiProject UK geography work through places in the Newport principal area, as well as places elsewhere in the UK, the introductions should all be updated to include the counties and home nations as laid out in the How to write about settlements guidelines. Caerleon IS in the preserved county of Gwent, as I stated above (it is, of course, also in the principal area of Newport); and, at the risk of repeating myself, this information is given in the article's infobox. I'm just trying to follow general UK geography guidelines agreed by consensus. Walgamanus 08:31, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

The borough of Newport was elevated to the status of a county borough under the Local Governmnet Act 1888 in November 1891. That corporation was dissolved by the Local Government Act 1972 in April 1974, but the Local Government (Wales) Act 1994 established a new county borough of Newport in April 1996, which was additionally awarded the status of a city in March 2002. The distinction between principal areas labelled "county" and "county borough" in the latter Act is entirely arbitrary - it is just a label within the narrow meaning of the LG(W)A 1994. Owain (talk) 14:35, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

The consensus was (and still is to my knowledge) that the administrative/ceremonial information should be restricted to the infobox and not cluttering up the opening sentence. The fact is that a "preserved county of Gwent" exists for certain functions - i.e. the appointment of a Lord-Lieutenant and to be taken into account by the Boundary Commission when drawing up constituencies every 8 to 12 years. It is NOT and never has been a general geographic description for an area. It most certainly is NOT correct to write "in the Welsh county of Gwent". Furthermore the historic county of Monmouthshire continues to exist as a geographic county independently of the administrative changes of 1974 and 1996. So "(formerly Monmouthshire)" is also incorrect. As I've already pointed out, having to explain this in the intro to EVERY article will become very tedious. Leave it out and let people see it in the infobox and click on the relevant articles if they want to know more. Owain (talk) 14:16, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd checked out the county borough, but thanks for the information. I am very aware that strictly speaking both forms of county still exist. As I stated, I am simply trying to follow Wikipedia agreed conventions.

I included the county in the intro because personally I find it useful, but mostly because Wikipedia:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements clearly states that you should do so: "The county and home nation must be mentioned". I have found no information concerning restriction to infoboxes, which would contradict the project guidelines. All the information I can find concerning referencing counties indicates that in non-historical subject articles the modern administrative or ceremonial counties should be used. Historic counties should be mentioned, but treated as not being currently in existence. Hence my description.

See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (places): "We should use the current, administrative, county....We should mention historic (traditional) counties in articles about places and in references to places in a historic context, but only as an afternote. If a place is a unitary authority and not administered by a county council, it is acceptable to use ceremonial counties as geographic references, as this is often more in line with common usage. As has been pointed out, it is not useful to state that "Luton is a town in the county of Luton"...We should not take the minority position that they still exist with the former boundaries."

However, I have been browbeaten enough and have lost interest in this article, as I'm sure was the intention. I hope that adding "in south-east Wales" to the introduction is not too contraversial. I believe that naming the country in an article's introduction is useful to an international audience. Walgamanus 21:00, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Luton is a town and local authority/borough of the same name, Caerleon certainly isn't because it's in Newport. "Bushmead is a suburb/district in the town and borough of Luton." would be perfectly acceptable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Marky-Son (talk • contribs) 14:24, 2 March 2007 (UTC).