Talk:Butch and femme

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[edit] Butch and Femme

This photo Butch and femme.jpg is a free photo held by Wikimedia Commons. It is a photo of a butch and femme couple and is eminently suited to be displayed in this article.

Why was it deleted ?

On what grounds ?

This article is not the private property of any particular person, no matter how "butch" or "femme" she thinks she may be..

Very good reasons have to be given before deleting something that belongs to Wikimedia Commons, ie, all of us.--87.243.196.167 09:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Look at the top of this page, where it is stated that a photo should be added to improve the quality of the article, well a photo was added but then deleted by someone who thinks she owns the article.

She should be told that she does not and her private prejudices must not be allowed.--87.243.196.167 10:02, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Can you provide any evidence that this is actually a picture of a butch-femme couple? Because what it *looks* like is a random magazine photo of two women, neither of whom looks the slightest bit butch. True, the one on the left has short hair, but she's wearing makeup and her whole look is completely feminine. That makes it a very misleading illustration for this article.
Anyone can upload an image to Commons, claim to have taken it, and call it anything they want -- I can scan a picture out of Cat Fancy and say it is my basset hound -- so we need to exercise a little judgment and common sense. We would be doing readers a disservice by presenting such an unrealistic and unauthenticated photo as "what a butch-femme couple looks like". —Celithemis 00:50, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


What exactly is a "butch" supposed to look like ?
"Butch" women never wear make up ? - is that a commandment written down in a tablet of stone somewhere ?
Is it realistic to impose conformity ?
A woman who is "butch" is supposed to deny her femininity ?
Every "butch" is supposed to conform to a stereotypical outlook ?
Being lesbian or gay is a joyous celebration of individuality; of not conforming to society's standards.
But now, we are supposed to look and dress alike and conform to stereotypes ?
The only acceptable "butch" is one who looks like an ersatz man ?
Can you provide any evidence that this is not actually a picture of a butch-femme couple?.

--87.243.196.167 09:46, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Information on Wikipedia must be verifiable, and the burden of proof is on the person wanting to add material. Otherwise people could add all kinds of nonsense and rely on the difficulty of proving a negative to keep it in. I could take a photo of the next two random women who walk down the street and put it here. So if there's no good evidence on either side, it has to stay out.
As for your other questions, no one is telling anyone how to identify or how to dress. It is a fact that butches generally prefer not to wear feminine styles, and instead adopt a butch aesthetic. If you really think that means looking like an "ersatz man" then we are not going to agree on much about butch and femme, but I hope we can at least agree on that basic fact. We don't know how these women identify -- we can't ask them -- so there's nothing but appearance to go on here. Appearances suggest that neither of these women is butch. —Celithemis 14:48, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] femme

The f should be lower-case, I think, but since both words are adjectives, I think this should be moved to butch and femme subcultures (note the plural in the title). Any other suggestions

[The following comment has been moved in line with its reference.]

Regarding the capitalization comment at the top of the page, I think this article does need to be renamed to conform with Wikipedia style (unless Butch and Femme are characters ala Itchy and Scratchy ;) Thus, I'm renaming it. I'll leave further renaming to someone else more knowledgable. Gwimpey 23:35, Nov 23, 2004 (UTC)

We should start selling the TV rights now. I can see the elevator pitch for it now: Butch and Femme: "just two girls trying to make their way in the Big Apple; part Odd Couple, part part Laverne & Shirley, part Moonlighting". -- The Anome 16:50, May 27, 2005 (UTC)

Butch and Femme can be nouns to identify certain people but they can also be adjectives to describe someone's attributes/characteristics. This entry muddies the two and is not clear in that area. --Mic 05:22, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lipstick lesbians

I've got issues with your portrayal of lipstick lesbians (media cliche term) as femmes who are attracted to other femmes. I'm not sure these creatures are common outside hollywood and male fantasies. I'm willing to accept that I lead a sheltered life and/or that this is a US-based thing.

Secretlondon 19:12, Sep 26, 2003 (UTC)

Oh, is being attracted to butches an inherent quality of femmeness? How interesting. - Montréalais 08:36, 27 Oct 2003 (UTC)
no, just (conventionally) feminine lesbian women who are attracted to each other, I'm assuming that you were having trouble with the issue of femme identity, since I have a hard time believing that anyone wouldn't be able to understand how one pretty gay woman could be attracted to another

I've never heard of a pretty gay woman. Always, everytime, the attractive "lesbian" turns out to be bi, or maybe plain straight, and just foolin'. Very rarely asexual. But then thats only everything I've ever seen, heard, experienced or read about ;) Sam [Spade] 23:52, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Do we have any lesbian contributors who can revise this article? They would be in a better position to know. -- The Anome 00:04, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)

All I know is this: At least since I was in secondary school, it has been in to be a "lesbian". In my Highschool, at least 1/3rd of the girls claimed to be lesbians, but hardly any did anything beyond kissing in front of the boys to get them excited. Nothing has changed in the world as I know it since then. Sam [Spade] 00:17, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Well, just because I haven't seen the Dalai Lama, doesn't mean he doesn't exist... ;) I'll go through the article now and try and make some edits if need be. Dysprosia 09:48, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I've seen the Dalai Lama ;) Sam [Spade] 13:45, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Oh well ... I have seen many good looking lesbian women, and I doubt they were "actually" bisexual or asexual, or "straight and fooling". I also never heard of a place where it is or was "in" to pretend to be lesbian; although of course it is a reasonable course when the guys available are maybe not exactly desireable. After all, women like character and intelligence, too. -- AlexR 17:33, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The Anome - yes, you do have lesbian contributors who are willing to work on this article. My attention was only just drawn to the article today, but I am happy to revise it, including input from both butches and femmes I know who have also expressed an interest in helping. -Etoile 14:28, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Thank you! This article could do with some knowledgeable help. -- The Anome 16:54, May 27, 2005 (UTC)

Alas, while I am a lesbian I'm quite young and indeed a virgin, so I can't really help you, although I am a femme who is attracted to femmes. -- 172.128.168.31 22:13, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Femme vs Fem

The word "fem" is usually used for men and "femme" for women. The phrase "fem men" returns 28,300 results on Google, "femme men" returns 1,870. "Fem man" returns 15,800 and "femme man" returns 992 (most of which seem unrelated). I changed it in the article but there should be some sort of explanation / origin there. Foxxygirltamara 00:21, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

As I recall, google would include the results for "femme" as well as those for "fem" in your search, because everytime you use the letters f-e-m-m-e connected to each other, you're also spelling out f-e-m. So, those results would be invalid. Though, if I'm wrong feel free to tell. Lass Lethe 01:32, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] transwoman vs transgendered female

My view is that transwomen and transmen are generally self-identified labels whereas transgendered fe/male also describes those that don't necessarily identify with the gender they choose to present. Of course, the usage of any labels or descriptions within a genderqueer context is fraught with opportunity to offend, even for those of us on the inside. Personally, I prefer "person of gender". Fanx 16:42, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I see it precisly the other way around - transgender is one of many possible self-identifications, and so are male and female. Transman and transwoman have been coined to replace the old male-to-female and female-to-male; so many people protested against the first part that new words seemed to be in order. Hence transman and transwoman are less problematic than those, especially since they also avoid the war about transsexual vs. transgender vs. transvestite vs. whatever. They are not perfect, but they are an improvement. If, on the other hand, you start defining many transsexual-identitfied woman as transgender, you are bound to get an edit war.
And I don't quite understand your definition - transgender people are people who don't identify with the sex they were assigned at birth, but why should they not identify with the gender they choose to present? The whole point of transitioning is to be able to present as a gender one can identify with - or that is at least closer to the one a person identifies with. -- AlexR 19:44, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

In this case we are not talking about persons that identify as female or are transitioning, what we are talking about is men who have sex with persons they identify as being male but presenting a female appearance in order to deny their own same-gender sexual activity as being homosexual. A transgendered person does not necessarily have to identify as being of the gender they are presenting - there are plenty of drag queens, (self-identified) she-males and en-femme transvestites that that do not consider themselves as female even if they are engaging in sexual activities with self-identified heterosexual males. As transgender(ed) female also means presenting a female external identity regardless of the internal (male or female) identity I feel my definition is more correct than yours. You are wrong in presuming that I am about to start defining any transsexual-identitfied woman as transgender - quite the opposite, and having read your userpage and some of your edits I would have thought we were broadly in agreement that transgender doesn't necessarily mean transsexual. Given that this article is about butch and femme identities I do not propose to enter into any edit war over a definition that is best left to the appropriate Transgender pages. Of course my reference to preferring the definition "person of gender" should in no way be taken seriously as it is no more than a parody of a couple of well-known euphemisms. Fanx 14:59, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm ... well, if those male-bodied people do not identify as female (or at least as not-male) then they are not transgender, either. At least according to every definition I have come accross so far. Now, as for "presenting a female appearance in order to deny their own same-gender sexual activity as being homosexual", that is a very tricky one. Because, you know, there are an awful lot of transpeople who use a claim like this to deny their transgender feelings. Of course, people you describe exist as well. Making it extremely tricky to firmly put people showing that behaviour into one one category or the other. Besides, if they also have relationships to women, they are not homosexual anyway, they would be bisexual. And there are certainly enough men who have sex with other men who otherwise identify as straight without presenting as or identifying as female or not-male. One can of course say that is kind of missing the point - or one can questiont the identity politics behind trying to fit people into neat hetero-, homo- and bisexual boxes. Either way it is problematic to slap them with a label they neither necessarily fit nor self-identify with. -- AlexR 17:19, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Transgender is a broad category. It does include people who do not have any intention to transition to a different gender but they do not identify with their current gender assignment. I typically hear transgender used more within the butch-femme community, mostly comprised of born biologically female individuals. You have transgender butches who are still female but do not identify as woman. Judith Halberstam has a good definition in her book Female Masculinity (1998) (quoted under fair use clause from wikipedia): "Transgender describes a gender identity that is at least partially defined by transitivity but that may well stop short of transsexual surgery" (p. 161). Please delete the quoted material if it falls outside of fair use.--Mic 05:44, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Advertising dating sites

Hi

We run the UKs premier Butch-Femme site and dating site.

Could you please link to us at

www.butch-femme.co.uk and www.butchfemmedating.co.uk

Thanks My email is liverpoolbutch@butch-femme.co.uk 82.42.192.24 11:32, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Not only do I see no reason at all to link that page -- Wikipedia is not a link repository -- I was very close to remove even this comment from this talk page. This is so unashamed advertising, that it makes me wonder whether you have even the faintest idea where you are. Unless a site has lots of information on a topic not present already on a linked page -- and a site that advertises itself as dating site has most probably not -- it does not belong in the Wikipedia. Which, just so that there is no misunderstanding, does mean I have anything against that site, if I currently had a page where it is appropriate I would link there -- only, as I said, not here. Unless there is a really good reason. And then you can do it yourself. -- AlexR 15:49, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
The first site is not a dating site, it's a social site for butch/femme women in the UK. There was already a link to a similar US website, so I added the UK one. (But not the dating site!) Jennifer Brooks 19:03, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Butch

The photo of the butch-femme couple is completely unrealistic. the "butch" in this photo is just a feminine woman wearing a pant suit. There is nothing Butch about her at all. I suggest you do some more research and find a better photo —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.82.165.4 (talk • contribs) 20:08, 4 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Uh?

"Power femmes can be anything that empowers them to be the idea of femme "energy". Demure can be part of that. So it is an evolving concept of empowerment within the community."

Sounds like abracadabra to me. --91.148.159.4 22:40, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kiki

Nowhere on this wiki do I find the concept "kiki", an old term (20s?) for a lesbian who is neither butch nor femme. Maybe it should be included in this article. Either way, there should be a link to in on the disambig page kiki. I didn't add one since I wasn't sure how to name it. // habj 23:16, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] odd paragraph

Hey, a little new to this, the last paragraph of the first section seems a little argumentative:

"Alternate conceptualizations of femme-butch persons suggest that butch and femme are, in fact, not hetero-mimicries or attempts to take up so-called 'traditional' gender roles. In the first instance, this argument situates 'traditional' gender roles as biological, ahistorical imperatives - a claim that has been contested by writers from Sigmund Freud to Judith Butler, Jay Prosser, Anne Fausto-Sterling, and many others. These authors take up gender as both socially and historically constructed, rather than as essential, 'natural', or strictly biological. Specifically with regard to butches and femmes, lesbian historian Joan Nestle argues that femme and butch may be seen as distinct genders in and of themselves (see The Persistent Desire, 1993). Elsewhere, it has been argued that butch and femme are 'read' as imperfect copies of heterosexual gender roles due to the uncritical assumption that masculinity and femininity are inseparable from genetic male-ness or female-ness. For example, to suggest that a butch woman is attempting to annex heterosexual male power or privilege - a claim leveled by some radical feminists (see Sheila Jeffreys and others) - fails to take note of the social censure leveled at individuals who reject social and cultural imperatives that link biological sex with what Judith Butler calls 'gender performance' (see Bodies that Matter, 1993)."

it's definitely not properly cited, and it makes axiomatic statements sound like fact. "For example, to suggest that a butch woman is attempting to annex heterosexual male power or privilege - a claim leveled by some radical feminists (see Sheila Jeffreys and others) - fails to take note of the social censure leveled at individuals who reject social and cultural imperatives that link biological sex with what Judith Butler calls 'gender performance' (see Bodies that Matter, 1993)."

Why? the author offers no proof for his or her opinion.--Iclavdivs (talk) 22:20, 2 June 2008 (UTC)