Talk:Buddhism/Archive 11

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

GA on hold

Altough the text complies almost to all of the GA criteria, minor adjustments are needed in order to have GA (the article will stay on hold for 7 days). Please address these elements to pass GA :

The inline external links should adopt the inline citation format already in use.
Loan words should be in accordance with the MoS... as they should be italicized unless they have common use in the English.
It also lacks in citations.
The section Buddhist Culture and Art should at least show a paragraph (like a lead for the main article).
I agree with the trimming down of the external links section ... it could be spamming. Lincher 19:47, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Lincher! Could you please remind the acronymically challenged (e.g., me) what "GA" is? Thanks. --Andkaha^(talk) 22:30, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Hallo Andkaha: I think "GA" means "good article"! Best wishes, from Tony. TonyMPNS 22:53, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes it meant good article, you can see that the article was nominated on July 2 on the Nomination page of the Good article project which has the following criteria. Lincher 01:34, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

GA failed ... the minor adjustments were addressed. Also please consider dividing or archiving the discussion page. Lincher 03:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Is this a good article? I found (and corrected) two mistakes in just the first paragraph. That's not a good omen for the rest of the article. Peter jackson 17:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Buddhist doctrines

There has been too little emphasis on buddhist doctrines. The language is terse and difficult to understand. we need to present the doctrines in a clear and concise manner that even a child can understand. Metaphysical aspects can be dealt with seperately. This is the opening page of Buddhism. lets not loose the practical- social spirit of buddhism and indulge in other worldly persuits and metaphysical concepts. I intend to simply the meaning of each and every term given in the doctrines. and add a few more doctrines like the law of kamma.--Yeditor 13:21, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh dear, here we go again !--Stephen Hodge 19:42, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I share Stephen's sense of despair! While Buddhism of course has important social implications and reverberations, the "metaphysical"/ "other-worldly" elements of the Dharma are also very much present there and should not be minimised or bolted on as an after-thought. After all, the whole idea of escaping from death and suffering into the uncreated, deathless and blissful realm of Nirvana is pretty much metaphysical and "other-worldly". Mahayana Buddhism, specifically, is even more "metaphysical" and mystical (constantly stressing that Reality is "beyond thought and conceptualisation") than Pali Buddhism. Best wishes. From Tony. TonyMPNS 21:13, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

This is a small section of the discussion that took place between Nagasena and King Milinda (King Menandor of Bactria) recorded in Milinda Panha. Milinda asked this question: "Why does religion languish?" Nagasena gave three reasons in his answer.

(1) The first reason is that the religion is immature. In that religion, the basic principles have no depth. That makes for a temporal religion, and the religion will hold fast only if it suits the times. (2) The second reason is that there may be no learned men to spread the religion. If there are none, the religion languishes. Learned men should preach religious wisdom. If the propagandists of a religion are not ready to hold discussion with opponents, the religion will die. (3) The third reason is this: If religion and religious philosophy are only for the learned, the religion will not survive. For common ordinary people, there are temples and shrines. They go there and worship supernatural power. If this is the case, the religion languishes. Please refer to the 3rd reason. Removing Buddhism from the realm of day today practice and casting it into Metaphysics can cause it to languish.

Many western scholars are attracted to Buddhism because of the seemingly esoteric nature of Buddhism. But nothing can be further from truth. I have copy pasted below, for easy reference, the Basic path of the Buddha as enumerated in his ‘First Sermon’ in which he laid his religion open for examination. One look at it will reveal a startling fact that there is nothing metaphysical or a speculative theory in it. Buddhism is practical. Buddhism’s beauty is that all its doctrines are stated to regulate and improve a man’s relations to another man. The Buddha’s core teachings operate and over the whole scale of one's attitudes; emotions; feelings and actions towards other beings. There is hardly anything in the path of the Buddha that is not social. The idea of Nibbaba (nirvana) also remains greatly misunderstood and many critics make nonsense of this doctrine. There is nothing metaphysical about Nibbana - It just means happiness

Regarding Metaphysical and ‘other worldly’ speculations- To Anathapidika, the Blessed Buddha said “Let us, then, surrender the heresies of worshipping Ishavara and praying to him; let us not lose ourselves in vain speculations of profitless subtleties; let us surrender self and all selfishness, and as all things are fixed by causation, let us practise good so that good may result from our actions."

The path of the Buddha

(1) The Path of Purity (Pancasila)

a.Not to kill b.Not to steal c.Not to lie d.Not to indulge in lust e.Not to indulge in intoxicating drinks.),

(2) Path of Righteousness (Ashtanga Marga; 8 fold path)

a. Samma Ditti (Right Views) giving up of belief in the efficacy of rites and ceremonies, to sanctity of the Shasras, superstition and supernaturalism, speculations; requires free mind and free thought. b. Samma Sankappo: teaches aims, aspirations and ambitions shall be noble and praiseworthy and not ignoble and unworthy c. Samma Vacca (Right Speech) teaches: that one should not speak evil; slander; not use angry and abusive language; that one should speak kindly and courteously to all d. Samma Kamanto: teaches right behavior. It teaches that every action should be founded on respect for the feelings and rights of others e. Samma Ajivo. Every individual has to earn his livelihood by good means without causing injury or injustice to others f. "Samma Vyayamo: (Right Endeavour) is primary endeavour to remove Avijja g. Samma Satti calls for thoughtfulness h. Samma Samadhi The five hindrances are covetousness, ill-will, sloth and torpor, doubt and indecision. Samma Samadhi is to cultivate a habit of good and always to think of good.

(3) Path of Virtue (Parimita)

a. Sila: The disposition not to do evil and the disposition to do good b. Dana; means the giving of one's possessions, blood and limbs and even one's life, for the good of others without expecting anything in return c. Uppekha; is detachment as distinguished from indifference. Remaining unmoved by the result and yet engaged in the pursuit of it d. Nekkhama; is renunciation of the pleasures of the world. e. Virya; is right endeavour. It is doing with all your might whatever you have undertaken to do with never a thought of turning back f. Khanti; forbearance. Not to meet hatred by hatred is the essence of it. For hatred is not appeased by hatred. It is appeased only by forbearance g. Succa; is truth. A person must never tell a lie. His speech must be truth and nothing but truth. h. Adhithana ; is resolute determination to reach the goal. i. Karuna ; is loving kindness to human beings. j. Maitri is extending fellow feeling to all beings, not only to one who is a friend but also to one who is a foe : not only to man but to all living beings.

The way to Nibbana (happiness) is to follow the 8 fold path and to reduce 1. Lobha: all degrees of craving or attachment—such as lust, infatuation and greed 2. Dosa: all degrees of antipathy—hatred, anger, vexation or repugnance 3. Moha or avidya: all degrees of ignorance—delusion, dullness and stupidity

with metta to all 12:11, 1 August 2006 (UTC)--Yeditor 08:28, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the lengthy posting above. I agree that Buddhism is a practical religion - it is not just about believing, but crucially about doing and cultivating; but that practical outlook is underpinned by a vision of the world and the beings within it which is rooted in metaphysics and religious understanding. The Buddha's first sermon is just that: his FIRST sermon. He gave many, many more, which elaborated in greater detail on what he wished to communicate (especially if one includes in that the Mahayana). As for a totally "this-worldly" approach to Dharma: well, the whole purpose of Prince Siddhartha's search was to find lasting peace (not just pleasure during this lifetime) and "immortality"/ "the deathless" - how to cross beyond the clutches of repeated deaths and rebirths. That - and the deathless Nirvana itself, said to be beyond worldly comprehension, not just ordinary sensory happiness - all sounds pretty "metaphysical" to me. But that does not, as you say, exclude the need for practical action and practice, as well as having a positive impact upon one's society. The two - practicality within a metaphysical/mystical framework - are not mutually exclusive, but mutually supportive. Best wishes to you. From Tony. TonyMPNS 18:19, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Tony. I agree with you. I have no intention of reducing Buddhism to pure psychology and psychotherapy. I was just concerned about the 'Focus'of the article. with metta --Yeditor 08:33, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Hallo Yeditor. Thanks for your thanks! I see that you are very interested in Dr. Ambedkar's work. I think it is so important that all hatred and discrimination against any oppressed social group should be vigorously opposed (using peaceful means, of course!) - and Buddhism is the perfect religion to employ for doing this. In much of the Mahayana, the key teaching is Kindness and Compassion (this is supported by the doctrine that all beings have the essence of the Buddha within them - the "Buddha Principle" or Buddha-dhatu). So although I know you are not keen on "metaphysical" talk, this particular teaching of Buddhism actually strengthens the case to treat all human beings with benevolence and respect. Each person is a Buddha-to-be! Best wishes. From Tony. TonyMPNS 22:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

On the law of Kamma

I have added a section on the law of Kamma. I prefer to call it Kamma (pali) instead of Karma ( sanskrit) as there is a negative meaning associated with Karma. Karma in the Hindu context means that ones deeds performed in previous lives are responsible for ones present conditions. This is a very pernicious Hindu doctrine and has been advanced by Hindu priests to escape from the social responsibility of alleaviting a man's condition. As per this doctrine all the poverty stricken, destitute people in this world must have been criminals in their previous lives. This cannot be true

The Buddhist law of kamma differs from the Hindu theory of Karma in this aspect. The buddhist law of kamma states that all actions are irreversable. That one cannot get rid of ones sins by asking for forgiveness or taking a bath in the holy river. An act once performed will leave its effect permanently on the society. It is the law of kamma that explains the maintainance of moral order in the world. It has nothing to do with the fortunes or misfortunes of people due to their actions in the previous birth.--Yeditor 13:52, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I haven't had a chance yet to read through the new section, but I would argue for using the term "karma" instead of "kamma". "Karma" is a very well-known word in english, and is the word used in most Buddhist works in english. Even if there is a distinction to be made between the Hindu and Buddhist concepts, I don't think that gives us license to change the terminology -- that smacks of original research to me. thanks! bikeable (talk) 19:10, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeditor presents above a very unusual view: this understanding of the workings of kamma/karma is at odds with very many Buddhist scriptures. It seems like a reworking of Buddhist views on kamma/karma with a socio-political agenda -- maybe no harm in that, but it should not be presented as orthodox Buddhist teaching.--Stephen Hodge 19:41, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I tend to think Bikeable has got a good and valid point: "karma" is much more familiar to most readers than "kamma". If one is speaking specifically of the terminology of the Pali suttas/vinaya, then it would be justified to use the term "kamma" (but even there, I would put "karma" in brackets after its first mention, so that the reader knows what is being spoken of). The general Buddhist understanding of karma/kamma can then be explained. I do also share Stephen's view that Yeditor's interpretation of karma is very unusual (not that that in itself is necessarily wrong or undesirable -the "unusual" can on occasion be very accurate and insightful); but Yeditor's take on karma does conflict with many statements by the Buddha himself which indicate quite clearly that acts performed with good or bad volition will generate an effect which will bring pleasant or unpleasant consequences to the doer. The emphasis is nearly always on the individual (especially in the Pali scriptures) as regards the fruits of a person's actions. In the Mahayana, serious negative consequences for the perpetrator of unwholesome deeds (especially those involving disparagement of True Dharma) are taught to visit that person in a future life - and similarly, doers of what is dharmically good are said to experience favourable physical and mental modes of rebirth as a consequence of such spiritual wholesomeness. So I think that the main Buddhism article should focus mostly on the prevailing teachings on karma/kamma as enunciated by the Buddha. If there is scriptural support for a broader social dimension to karma (which could perhaps be found in some Mahayana sutras), then that could perhaps receive a separate paragraph of its own. I'd be interested to hear what Bikeable and Stephen (and of course Yeditor, as well as other editors) further think about this. Regards. Tony. TonyMPNS 20:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Mmm, seems that most of you have already pointed out the main problems with the section. However, from my POV, maybe the section should be more about what it actually is about. That is to develop right living standards. And not focus on the rebirth thing. It can be said that Kamma(pali)/karma(later sutras) can be without the whole rebirth process. And that the main goal of kamma is to develop a right paths, in this life and not the next rebirth. So it should be more about the morals rather than there not being gods or some rebirth. Gods and Rebirth are metaphysicals.. So Trimming? Monkey Brain_(untalk) 21:27, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Nice edits, now the section is more simple and easy to understand. :) Monkey Brain_(untalk) 22:56, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree, although it seems a little too concise now. But I suggest that user Yeditor should go to the main Karma in Buddhism entry and add a short paragraph on Socio-political Problems -- describing the way the teachings on Karma in general can be abused (still today) to legitimize blatant injustices of the caste system, such as the all too real oppression that still happens to the Dalits in many parts of India. There are possible problems with a simplistic application or interpretation of karma. Applied literally, we might say that all those who died on 11/09 in the WTC deserved to die because of their karma or that the Lebanese civilians currently being murdered deserved their fate because of their past karma, etc etc. So, I think there are some dificulties with a literal interpretation of past karma = present experience. I personally think that past karma plays some part, but that also the "shit happens" model is also involved.--Stephen Hodge 23:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Monkeykiss, Stephen I agree with you. I will ad the socio-political implications in the main section. In my opinion, the deeds (kamma)and its effect of an individual, being completely irreversible, are stored in the collective memories of others. They pass on to others and future generations through social and biological mechanisms ( books, heridity, stories, fables etc). For e.g. Hindus and Muslims are still warring because of bad deeds of Muslims committed 1000 years ago. Thus there is no need for any etheral means for transfer of kamma from one generation to another. the rebirth concept is not necessary for the transfer of kamma. Anyways atleast one thing is certain that the same person never takes re-birth again. Kamma may recoil on the doer ( if i kill, i may get killed through revenge) or it may have an impact on others ( if i take a bribe, my children will have to suffer social stigma) or it can have effect on the future generations ( if i harm the environment mindlessly, future generations will not get clean water/air). It is not necessary that in all cases the deed kamma bounces back to the doer. Still the Law of Kamma is sufficient for maintaining the moral order as the key learning is that all actions will leave an impact which is irreversible. Thus its imperative to "THINK" before acting. There is no gain in regretting/praying later. Your opinion pls? with metta--Yeditor 09:18, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Just some small thought I had, related to the preceeding two comments by Stephen and Yeditor, which I agree with. All we have to work with is the way we perform our current actions, and karma is therefore, I think, a good incentive for following the Five Precepts. Looking for the actions of kammic results is somewhat futile and only possible to do correctly if you're a Buddha. --Andkaha^(talk) 10:53, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Stephen that the karma section is too concise now and not sufficiently informative. More to the present discussion: the Buddha's teaching on karma does not exclude the social impacts which Yeditor speaks about. That is also why we should have kindliness and compassion guide our actions (including those of speech), since our deeds affect others for good or ill. The idea that it is OK to harbour hatred in our hearts, or in our actions, towards those who are socially deprived, poor, despised (e.g. "outcastes", etc.) is anathema to Buddhism. The Law is one of kindness and compassion - not hatred and mean-spirited nastiness towards others. But those deeds which we perform do also return back to ourselves in some like-natured way - whether in this lifetime or in another. There are numerous passages in the Pali and Mahayana sutras (even in the prajnaparamita sutras) which indicate that what we intentionally think, say and do unleashes positive or negative forces upon us at a later time. We may not like this doctrine, we may find it unpalatable. But whether we like it or not is as irrelevant as whether we like the law of gravity. It is there (according to the Buddha). And if we wish to do justice to the Buddha's teachings, we have to report accurately what his doctrine of karma actually states. This is not to say that people who are suffering unpleasant circumstances should be looked down upon or scorned or rejected: absolutely not. Quite the reverse. We all have a backlog of karma waiting to ripen, for good or ill; none of us unawakened beings is perfect. So the foul-tasting fruits of our less wise actions from the past can enter our mouths, as it were, at any time, when conditions are right. Again, this should be a cause for compassion and kindliness towards all persons and creatures. The doctrine of karma, as taught by the Buddha, does not insist that we should treat those currently going through bad karma (and in a sense we all are, otherwise we would not be in samsara!) as scum or scoundrels. Kindness and the desire to help, and seeing all beings as "one's only child", should be the activating force within us. So, in sum: any societal distortions of the karma teachings to mean that people "deserve what they get and so should be left to rot in hell" (so to speak) are an outrage and not endorsed by the Buddha. On the other hand, however, we have to acknowledge that according to the Buddha our negative deeds can have negative consequences (which, however, can be thinned-down or even eliminated by the production of strong, wholesome, counter-active karma). So: we should not misrepresent the Buddha's karma doctrines, just because they might be a bitter pill for us to swallow. On the other hand, accepting that our deeds have consequences for ourselves and, yes, others too -this will, as Yeditor says, cause us to "think" before we act, and to act with kindness, wisdom and compassion. Best wishes to everyone. From Tony. TonyMPNS 10:49, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Supposed "spam" links

Perhaps it would be a good idea if MonkeyKiss consulted first before arbitrarily deleting external links -- some of these are obviously not spam. There is a hint of censorship at work here.--Stephen Hodge 23:23, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah sorry, I forgot about that. But I had not said that they, the two that has been restored, are spam. However, they are about sutras, the Nirvana Sutra and Tathagatagarbha Sutras. Each belonging in their rightful article. Not the main article. Monkey Brain_(untalk) 23:36, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

The other ones are Either not notable and seems like promotion (buddhachat.org) or promoting a single sect(pure land link). Monkey Brain_(untalk) 23:44, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Removed Sentence

I have removed "this doctrine advanced by the Buddha is beyond doubt fatal to belief in God and creation" mostly because a citation would be appropriate, but also because it probably should be reworded slightly. Addhoc 11:55, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I have modified this sentence "Neo-Buddhism has seen a revival of Buddhism in India but is also tinged with the politics of caste and conversion. This movement was initiated by B. R. Ambedkar in 1956 with a mass conversion ceremony of Dalits." The meaning of this sentence is negative. Buddhist revival in India is a social change for self respect. There are no material/political benifits of conversion to Buddhism. --Yeditor 10:43, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Misconception that needs to be fixed

it is a common misconception that the noble eightfold and the middle way are differnt things, but the truth is they are two differnt names for the same thing. thats why the beginnig paragraph should be changed from noble eightfold and the middle way to the noble eightfold also know as the middle way and the middle way article and the noble eightfold article should be merged together. thank you - User: Farzon Lotfi

It isn't a misconception, it's the orthodox teaching. If you want to include fuller details on the identity of the two then please do so in an appropriate place, not in the first few paragraphs of Buddhism, or with no supporting comments on either Eightfold Path or Middle Way. The Buddha said many things, and he chose what he said according to who he was speaking to. Identifying the two doctrines is based, as far as I can tell, on one sutta (since the editors who keep making the changes do not bother to provide links or any kind of encyclopaedic comment) and too advanced to feature so prominently and without explanation. If you feel that this identity needs to be asserted please do so appropriately. Rentwa 11:17, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Aloof from these two extreme approaches is the Noble Eightfold Path, called the middle way, not in the sense that it effects a compromise between the extremes, but in the sense that it transcends them both by avoiding the errors that each involves. The path avoids the extreme of sense indulgence by its recognition of the futility of desire and its stress on renunciation. Desire and sensuality, far from being means to happiness, are springs of suffering to be abandoned as the requisite of deliverance. But the practice of renunciation does not entail the tormenting of the body. It consists in mental training, and for this the body must be fit, a sturdy support for the inward work. Thus the body is to be looked after well, kept in good health, while the mental faculties are trained to generate the liberating wisdom. That is the middle way, the Noble Eightfold Path, which "gives rise to vision, gives rise to knowledge, and leads to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana."3 www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/waytoend.html here is some evidence FL

Fine. Can we have it integrated into WP appropriately, for instance in the article on the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta? (I presume it's a commentary on this sutta.) You can then put 'See also' links to the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta on the Middle Way and Eightfold Path articles. Rentwa 16:57, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Yah that would be the best thing to do. I think you should eventually merge the two articles and explain how the Eightfold pass is the middle way or just note they are the same thing and merge the two articles. What ever works as long as the misconception is fixed. --FL

Nirvana is not knowledge or enlightenment. Bodhi is enlightenment. It may or may not lead to Nirvana, which is the extinction of attachment or desire.Lestrade 02:09, 20 September 2006 (UTC)Lestrade

Vibhajjavada

Have a look at the Vibhajjavada article. Somebody keeps reverting to an older version to suppress NPOV info they don't like. This guy won't discuss his problems on the Talk Page.--Stephen Hodge 02:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I have added it to my watch list.—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 03:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. As you know, this same guy keeps deleting valid material from the Theravada page.--Stephen Hodge 03:25, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

borges

jorge luis borges writes in 'the sect of the phoenix' (ficciones) that "the name which (budism) is known throughout the world, is not the one (budists) pronounce." does anybody know something about that?

It's essentially true- 'Buddhism' is a neo-logism coined by European observers. In Buddhist countries I'm familiar with the terms Buddha dhamma-vinaya (teaching and discipline of the Buddha) and Buddhasasana (or just sasana, meaning message or teaching) being used. --Clay Collier 01:17, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Although Clay is, of course, right that "Buddhism" is a neo-logism, I can't quite tell what Borges is getting at. If he's talking about Buddhism in Asia, where people don't speak English, then, naturally, they wouldn't call it Buddhism. On other other hand, almost all of the English-speaking Buddhists that I'e met do call it Buddhism.—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 00:31, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

New external link - Buddhism for Humanists?

Could someone kindly have a look at my article Buddhism for Humanists to see if it should be included as an external link?

Acampbell70 11:08, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Parinirvana

It is a common mistake to think that parinirvana only occurs at death. See this definition from the PED:

Parinibbāna (nt.) [pari+nibbāna] "complete Nibbāna" in two meanings: 1. complete extinction of khandha-life; i. e. all possibility of such life & its rebirth, final release from (the misery of) rebirth and transmigration, death (after the last life-span of an Arahant). This is the so-called "an-upādi-sesa Parinibbāna," or "extinction with no rebirth-substratum left." - 2. release from cravings & attachment to life, emancipation (in this life) with the assurance of final death; freedom of spirit, calm, perfect well-being or peace of soul. This is the so-called "sa-upādisesa-P.," or "extinction (of passion) with some substratum left." - The two kinds are distinguished by Bdhgh at DhA II.163 as follows: "arahatta-pattito paṭṭhāya kilesa-vaṭṭassa khepitattā sa - upādi - sesena, carima - citta - nirodhena khandhavaṭṭassa khepitattā an-upādi-sesena cā ti dvīhi pi parinibbānehi parinibbutā, an-upādāno viya padīpo apaṇṇattika-bhāvaŋ gatā." - 1. D II.72 sq. (the famous Mahā-parinibbāna-suttanta or "Book of the Great Decease"); M III.127, 128; A II.79 (°samaye); III.409 (°dhamma, contrasted with āpāyika nerayika, cp. DhA IV.42); Mhvs 7, 1 (°mañcamhi nipanna); VvA 158; PvA 244. -- 2. D III.55; A V.64; Sn 514 (°gata+ vitiṇṇa-kankho); Vv 5324 (°gata+sītibhūta). This state of final emancipation (during life) has also received the determination of anupādā-parinibbāna, i. e. emancipation without ground. for further clinging (lit. without fuel), which corresponds to Bdhgh's term "kilesavaṭṭassa khepitattā sa-upādi-sesa p." (see above); thus at M I.148; S IV.48; V.29; A I.44; V.65 (nicchāto nibbuto sītibhūto etc).; A V.233=253=Dh 89 (+khīṇāsava). --Stephen Hodge 13:33, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Stephen. I am pasting relevant text on the subject. For complete explanation refer The Buddha And His Dhamma

““There are certain misunderstandings about the Buddha's doctrine of Nibbana. 40. The word Nibbana etymologically means outblowing, extinguishing. 41. Taking hold of this root meaning of the word, critics have tried to make nonsense of the doctrine of Nibbana. 42. They hold that Nibbana means extinction of all human passions which is equivalent to death. 43. They have by this means tried to throw ridicule over the doctrine of Nibbana. 44. That such is not the meaning of Nibbana is quite clear if one examines the language of the fire sermon. 45. The fire sermon does not say that life is burning and death is extinction. It says passions are on fire. 46. The fire sermon does not say that the passions must be extinguished completely. It says do not add fuel to the flame. 47. Secondly, critics have failed to make a distinction between Nibbana and Parinibbana. 48. As the Udana says: "Parinibbana occurs when the body becomes disintegrated, all perceptions become stopped, all sensations die away, the activities cease and consciousness goes away. Thus Parinibbana means complete extinction." 49. Nibbana can never have this meaning. Nibbana means enough control over passion so as to enable one to walk on the path of righteousness. It was not intended to mean. anything more. 50. That Nibbana is another name for righteous life is made clear by the Buddha himself to Radha. 51. Once the venerable Radha came to the Exalted One. Having done so he saluted the Exalted One and sat down at one side. So seated the venerable Radha thus addressed the Exalted One: " Pray Lord, what for is Nibbana?" 52. " Nibbana means release from passion " replied the Lord. 53. " But Nibbana, Lord,—what is the aim of it?" 54. " Rooted in Nibbana, Radha, the righteous life is lived. Nibbana is its goal. Nibbana is its end." 55. That Nibbana does not mean extinction is also made clear by Sariputta in the following sermon: 56. " Once the Blessed Lord was staying at Shravasti in Anathpindika's Arama where Sariputta was also staying. 57. "The Lord, addressing the brethren, said : ' Almsmen, be ye partakers not of the world's goods but of my doctrine; in my compassion for you all I am anxious to ensure this.' 58. " Thus spoke the Lord, who thereupon rose and passed to his own cell. 59. " Sariputta remained behind and the brethren asked him to explain what is Nibbana.

60. " Then Sariputta in reply to the brethren said : ' Brethren, know ye that greed is vile, and vile is resentment. 61. "'To shed this greed and this resentment, there is the Middle Way which gives us eyes to see and makes us know, leading us on to peace, insight, enlightenment and Nibbana. 62. " ' What is this Middle Way ? It is naught but the Noble Eightfold Path of right outlook, right aims, right speech, right action, right means of livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration; this, almsmen is the Middle Way. 63. " ' Yes, sirs: anger is vile and malevolence is vile, envy and jealousy are vile, niggardliness and avarice are vile, hypocrisy and deceit and arrogance are vile, inflation is vile, and indolence is vile. 64. " ' For the shedding of inflation and indolence there is the Middle Way—giving us eyes to see, making us know, and leading us on to peace, insight, enlightenment. 65. " 'Nibbana which is naught but that Noble Eightfold Path.' " 66. Thus spoke the revered Sariputta—Glad at heart, the almsmen rejoiced at what he had said. 67. That the idea underlying Nibbana is that it is the path of righteousness. No one will mistake Nibbana for anything else. 68. Complete annihilation is one extreme and Parinibbana is another extreme. Nibbana is the Middle Way.””Yeditor 10:15, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

According to KRNorman, the distinction between nibban and parinibbana is that the former is a state, the latter an event, i.e. attaining that state. This applies to both senses. Peter jackson 10:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Nirvana problems

The section on Nirvana erroneously mixes that concept with "Truth" and "Karma." Nirvana is simply the absence of attachment (desire) and, as a result, the absence of suffering. I deleted the sentence: "It is just the truth." Truth is the agreement between a cognition or judgment and something other than a cognition or judgment, such as an experience or a state of affairs. Nirvana is the absence of suffering, not the presence of joy or bliss. Therefore, I deleted "The happiness of Nirvana is the joy of having realized the ultimate truth; the bliss of escaping the endless chain of cause-and-effect." Nirvana is not related to the myth of Karma with its series of reincarnations. The Four Noble Truths of Buddhism clearly and distinctly show how suffering and attachment are characteristics of life. Nirvana is the mere absence of suffering and attachment. It is not truth or joy.Lestrade 15:28, 5 September 2006 (UTC)Lestrade

Lestrade, I have noticed that you sometimes make very direct statements about the nature of nirvana. Have you done any sort of serious scriptural study to arrive at these opinions? If not, why do you choose to edit on this topic?—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 03:43, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Ancient doctrine

Theravada does not mean ancient doctrine, although one could say that Theravada is an ancient doctrine now, after so many years. Ancient doctrine is a highly unusal translation,

Thera means 'senior monk', not 'old monk' or 'old person'. It's not about age but about seniority in the Sangha, based on how long someone has been a monk, a member of the monastic Sangha. It reflects one's experience with the Buddhist teachings while being a monk. The Theras have been the leaders of the Sangha, that's why it's monastic lineage is called the 'Doctrine of the Elders' (as in elder experienced monk). Greetings, Sacca 07:34, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Also, the 'old' aspect is but one aspect of the meaning of Thera. The term ancient doctrine does not take into account the 'monk' aspect. 'Ancient monk doctrine' would be a better translation ;-), or else 'the doctrine of the ancient monks'. Greetings, Sacca 07:45, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Time to Archive?

Just a note to those who participate on this page more than I. Looks like it's reached 34.4 kB as of today, and is thus automatically tagged as a "Too Long" Page. I'd suggest archiving soon. Deebki 19:35, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Practicing Buddhism after Buddha's passing away

A few days ago, Sacca added the section Practing Buddhism after Buddha's passing away. Most of this material is unobjectionable, although it's questionable whether it is significant enough to be included in an article which is already way too long. However, it also contains this contentious statement: "The leadership positions of the Dalai Lamas and Sangharajas are a more recent development, going against the spirit of this instruction of Buddha." Sacca, did you really think this was an appropriate comment for you to have Wikipedia say? You know, a lot of people don't believe that the institution of the Papacy was sanctioned by Jesus or God, but our article on Christianity, for obvious reasons, doesn't say, "The leadership position of the Pope is a more recent development which goes against the will of Jesus." Also, I think that the issue of translation into Sanskrit is more complicated than Sacca's description makes it sound, although I'd appreciate explanation from other people, since I don't know the details.

In view of these concerns, and the fact that this article had reached 93kB in length, I have removed this passage to talk.—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 22:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Helo Nat, if you really think it's unobjectionable and valid information, why not put it in a seperate article instead of moving it to the talk-page? Seems to me to be standard procedure.

Your question can be put to anybody who makes any addition to Wikipedia: "did you really think this was an appropriate comment for you to have Wikipedia say?" Of course, for anybody who is not a Wiki-vandal, the answer is "yes, I did". And I still do. I believe both the Dalai Lama and the Sangharajas know that their position is not sanctified by Buddha himself, they know too much to be able to hold such a belief. Buddha made a specific comment about not having a successor to himself. Jezus did not make such a comment, and neither did the apostles. Anyway, may you be happy, Greetings, Sacca 03:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Also I will move parts of it back, and make a new article. Your criticism is not about the validity of the material, just about the curent state of the article as too long. If you want to make the article shorter, there are some sections of history which are way too long, try removing something there, it's all double anyway. I just now notice that also the Mahayana section is really too long compared to Theravada and Vajrayana; I'll have to do this one myself I think. Greetings, Sacca 03:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I must admit that "did you really think this was an appropriate comment for you to have Wikipedia say?" was essentially a rhetorical question. My actual meaning was, "How can you justify the implication that this was an appropriate comment?", i.e. something other than your personal opinion. Clearly, most Theravadins and Tibetan Buddhists don't agree that their leaders' positions violate the spirit of the Buddha's instructions; who are you to question them?

As for the removed text, I don't know what to do with it. Most of the interesting points, I strongly suspect, are already mentioned elsewhere on Wikipedia, so there is no need to add them. I didn't think the text—minus objectionable portions and that which is covered elsewhere—would make a very meaningful article on its own.

By the way, I've noticed you removing references to "Hinayana" from the section on Theravada. This seems to clash with your stated preference for "early Buddhist schools" over the more academic "Nikaya schools"—"Hinayana" is certainly the vulgar term for this sort of Buddhism.—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 04:44, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

How does it clash? Is this a joke maybe? Greetings, Sacca 07:20, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

A joke? No. One of your arguments against the term "Nikaya Buddhism" is that it's too obscure, and is—you say—only by academics. By this logic, then, "Hinayana" is the ideal choice, because this is the most common way of referring to schools of Buddhism that aren't Mahayana or Vajrayana.—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 18:53, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

funny :-) Greetings, Sacca 15:09, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

What was removed

Gautama Buddha made a few statements which refer to practicing his teachings (Dhamma-Vinaya) after the Buddha has passed away: 1). Buddha refused to appoint a succesor to himself, saying that the Dhamma-Vinaya that he taught is the ultimate authority. The leadership positions of the Dalai Lamas and Sangharajas are a more recent development, going against the spirit of this instruction of Buddha. 2). Buddha diverged from ancient Brahmin tradition by allowing monks and nuns to preach in the language of the area they happened to be in, and to recite the Dharma in the local language as well. He forbade translating his teachings into the specific official religious language of the time: Sanskrit. 3). On one occasion, the Buddha, without giving specific elaboration, stated that the lesser and minor Vinaya rules can be abolished, if the Saṅgha unanimously agrees to do so. 4). Buddha also taught the Four Great Standards (Pali: mahapadesa), concerning future developments and new situations concerning the monks' discipline (Vinaya), which did not arise during the Buddha's time. He said that:

Whatever, monks, has not been objected to by me, saying: 'This is not allowable', if it fits in with what is not allowable, if it goes against what is allowable, that is not allowable to you.

Whatever, monks, has not been objected to by me, saying: 'This is not allowable', if it fits in with what is allowable, if it goes against what is not allowable, that is allowable to you.

And whatever, monks, has not been permitted by me, saying: 'This is allowable', if it fits in with what is not allowable, if it goes against what is allowable, that is not allowable to you.

Whatever, monks, has not been permitted by me, saying: 'This is allowable', if it fits in with what is allowable, if it goes against what is not allowable, that is allowable to you. (Vin. i. 250-1; trans. I.B. Horner)

5). Buddha also gave another four standards in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta. Here he gives advice on how to validate teachings subscribed to Buddha, that one receives through a third person. The follow statement is repeated four times, applied to different kinds of monks who had contact with either Buddha, his disciples, or other elders:

"Monks, the speech of that monk should neither be welcomed nor reviled. Non-welcoming, non-reviling, every word and syllable should be well studied, placed beside the Sutta and compared with the Vinaya. When placed beside the Sutta and compared with the Vinaya, should they not fit in with the Sutta, nor accord with the Vinaya, you should come to the conclusion: 'Truly this is not the word of the Blessed One, and has been wrongly grasped by that monk.' Thus, monks, you should reject it. If they fit in with the Sutta and accord with the Vinaya, then you should come to the conclusion: 'Truly this is the word of the Blessed One and has been rightly grasped by that monk."

During his lifetime, Buddha specifically refused to answer certain questions known as avyākṛta (Pāli: avyākata, "unexplained"). These are (1) Whether the world is eternal or not; (2) Whether the world is infinite or not; (3) Whether the body and the self are one and the same or not; (4) Whether the tathāgata exists after death, or not, or both does and does not, or neither does nor does not. In the Culla-Māluṅkyovāda-sutta, the Buddha, using an analogy of being shot by a poisoned arrow and asking about its origin and construction instead of removing the arrow and treating the wound. Gautama Buddha indicated to Māluṅkyāputta that such speculative questions are ultimately unprofitable [1]. Some later controversies in Buddhism deal with these very questions.

Tingeroo revert

User Tingeroo reverted the edits I did before, giving as reason 'Major modifications without discussion'. I would think that if he agreed with those 'major modifications' he would not revert them, so I suppose he disagrees (if this is not going too far).

I made edits in four areas of the article:

I put back a shortened version of the section on 'Buddha's instructions for practice after his death'.
I shortened the Mahayana section to bring it into line with Theravada and Vajrayana (It was really long, going into a lot of detail on several doctrinal issues).
I shortened the section on decline of Buddhism in India and Central Asia (which actually needs to be rewritten).
I refrased and removed some ploemical statements from the Therevada section.
I corrected the section on Early Buddhism which had wrong info on the second and third buddhist councils, and the schisms of that time.

Mostly the edits just concerned pruning of overly long paragrahs in the article, plus balancing the Theravada section and correcting issues on the early schisms. So Tingeroo, what are your objectons? And would you mind reverting those sections to which you do not object? Greetings, Sacca 14:32, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
P.S. I generally do not appreciate these general reverts at all, many very valid edits you reverted just because of 'no discussion'. I prefer to just look at content, so I invite you to revert the whole thing, and work from there. Just change what you do not think is correct, good or POV.

Your pruning was removing a lot of information that came into the article via lots of other discussions and input from editors. This article is not up for cleanup to accomodate such large scale changes without discussions. As a previously featured article and currently A-class article you need ask for input from other editiors if such large scale changes are first warranted. As you can see from the history even small changes undergo a lot discussion, and with such large scale changes that are undiscussed, its taking on too much.--Tigeroo 18:45, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, you have a point, we can ask ourselves why is this article apparently not good enough to be a good article, and why was it removed from the featured articles list? I looked at the article and was actually quite surprised. I think people right now maybe focus too much on the small articles, and the big one (his one) is forgotten, or maybe it's just become too bureaucratized. Or people just look at the small edits and don't look at the big picture of the whole article because it's become just too big.

The number 1 issue should be whether the articles is improved by an edit. Someone takes the effort to look at it and correct it, and makes it better? OK. So I'm going to put back some of the edits, and please Tingeroo look at the edit please and maybe also check with others whether they are correct if you're in doubt. Greetings, Sacca 03:52, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

If you doubt the early buddhism edit, you can ask user Stephen Hodge to check it (he's a scholar on the old buddhist texts). The current articles on second buddhist council and third buddhist council still need work. Greetings, Sacca 04:14, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

disagree

I disagree with the current page where it staes that "budhism is not a religion." Anything that charts a path to or dictates the end of my being is a religion. Buddhism qualifies on both counts. (Someone put this right after my (Saccas) edit, but it does not belong to me) Greetings, Sacca 03:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Main Traditions - Theravāda

Article states that the texts of the Pali Canon "are generally considered by modern scholars to be the earliest written Buddhist literature, and they are accepted as authentic in every branch of Buddhism." The linked article on Theravada goes somewhat further, stating that these texts and the parallel texts of the Agamas "are generally believed to be the oldest and most authoritative texts on Buddhism by scholars." Certainly this had been my understanding, but I have just read Donald S. Lopez Jr's introduction to his 2004 book Buddhist Scriptures (Penguin), in which he describes the 1894 Sacred Books of the East series as "[r]eflecting the opinion of the day that Pali texts of the Theravada tradition of Southesast Asia represented the most accurate record of what the Buddha taught (an opinion since rejected)...." (p. xv). Later he declares: "Scholars no longer regard Pali Buddhism as 'original Buddhism'...." (p. xxii). He does not footnote these assertions. Is anyone aware of to what scholarship Lopez is referring? Should such scholarship be referenced here, or do the assertions in this article and the Theravada article require modification in light of such scholarship? David Watson 19:09, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

The various statements don't seem contradictory to me. The Pali Canon is considered by scholars to be the earliest extant written Buddhist literature; and similar texts are considered authentic in every branch of Buddhism; and, for that reason, they are considered to be relatively authoritative compared to other Buddhist literature; but, this doesn't mean that scholars regard Theravada as the original Buddhism. I only see a problem if there is an article drawing that last conclusion from these facts; perhaps the phrasing at Theravada is a bit too strong and has a chance of being misleading, but it looks acceptable to me.—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 19:25, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Nat here, I also believe the term original Buddhism is maybe not the best term to use, because Therevada and Mahayana are both original 'forms of Buddhism'. I like the term pre-sectarian Buddhism, which keeps it in the historical framework. Greetings, Sacca 03:41, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Nat and Sacca for the comments. I agree there is not an outright contradiction, but I am interested in the issue raised and whether it should be reflected on Wikipedia (if not in this article or the Theravada article, perhaps in the Pali Canon article, the Buddhaghosa article, or the Mahavihara article). I have an email from Dr. Lopez about this research, with which I will not clutter this talk page, but I would be grateful if both of you (and anyone else interested) could take a look at it on my user talk page and comment. Thanks. David Watson 21:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Suggestions for the Doctrines and the Middle Way

Seeing as how this article is very deserving of feature status (namely being a major world religion), the reduction of the article's length should be considered a priority.

I believe the doctrines of Buddhism should be moved to a sister page, and replace them with a short, but detailed summary of the group as a whole. Likewise, I feel that the Middle Way can also be summarized more concisely for this main page. User:Akuyume/signature

schools in the article

I have shortened the Mahayana paragraph on Mahayana, it really was too long and going into a lot of detail on specific doctrines, which would be better done on the connected articles. Now it is of a comparable length to the Theravada and Vajayana. This appears to me to be very proper.

Also I will remove the polemical statements is the theravada paragraph, in particular to remove the Mahayanist opinions on Theravada which really do not deserve a place there.Greetings, Sacca 05:43, 20 September 2006 (UTC)