Talk:Bryges

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Contents 1 Shea and breg 2 Ancient macedonian is Hellenic 3 Ancient Macedons were Greek and Greek speakers 4 Bryges as a name 5 Source for this statement 6 More research guys 7 Moschoi

[edit] Shea and breg

This is undoubtedly one of the more serious of Shea's numerous errors, such as his description of Basil II of the Macedonian dynasty as being of "Macedonian Slavic background" when he was in fact of Armenian descent. The word breg, present in all modern Slavic languages of the region, cannot possibly be the origin of the ancient name of the Bryges. Shea is clearly confusing the ancient Macedonian language with the unrelated Slavic "Macedonian" of today. If the name of the Bryges did indeed derive from a Macedonian word, that could only have been an ancient Macedonian word. Are there no better sources we could cite? ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 12:52, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. See if you can find one, will you? Also I do not think you are considering that place names are typically adopted from one language into another, and that must be true of the Slavs in the Balkans, as they overran the Balkans from some place in the Carpathians later than classical times during the Slavic migrations. I appreciate the tip and why don't we both work on it? While you are at it, I think Mygdonia might be a form of Macedonia but I have not been able to find it yet so since you are interested (as am I) perhaps you could keep an eye out for it. This article of course will take a while to develop properly.Dave (talk) 17:42, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Of course it's entirely plausible that the Slavs could have adopted a Thracian name left behind by the Bryges, for example. But not the other way around, for purely chronological reasons. That's entirely my point. Also, how do we know that the Macedonian synonymy is "the most credible view"? Good work, by the way. We've always had a shortage of good classicists. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 18:06, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Short search. I found it. It's in Pokorny, the great master, to whose work a whole site and research effort at the U. of Leiden has been dedicated. Pokorny cites the ancient Macedonian name and makes various connections. It will take me as long as a few hours to write this up as I cannot dedicate every minute to it (much to my regret). I think Shea deserves some credit so I'm not just going to exclude him and he is readily reviewable on the Internet, this section anyway. What's the point of being reviewable if no one ever reviews you? For the most credible, I based that on two points: 1) The bryges actually lived right there in Macedonia so if there was a local derivation of the name it would be more believable 2) The great sweeping views are often pretty thin pulling in rag tags from every which way. However in this case I am not willing to give up the people of light or fire as it seems unusual that so many people should be named after the light and when you consider that its worship is so ancient. But as I say they cannot all be right even though they are all excellent and credible. Perhaps then I should drop the idea of most credible but as the highland people seems the strongest and most present to the Bryges I would like to keep that one first. Thanks for the nice words. I've always been a generalist and only reluctantly a specialist so when I saw how well Wikipedia serves that purpose I went for it right away. You can get sweeping views on here that would only be possible with multiple printed encyclopedias elsewhere and although it is a bit like sidewalk art or ice sculpting still it is adaptive and reactive to new information.Ciao.Dave (talk) 18:50, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

What is the ancient Macedonan name? I have a hunch it's not breg. I think Pokorny definitely deserves a mention, especially in support of the highland theory. The connection of Macedonia to Bryges or Mygdonia had never actually occurred to me, but it is a fascinating hypothesis. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 03:12, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm working on it. I'm only remembering what I read somewhere but you never can find things you read when you want to so if I cannot find it in my library or on the Internet than it can't go in unless you or someone else finds it.Dave (talk) 03:20, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Kékrōps your accusations on the modern and ancient language of the Macedonians lack sources and much linguistic evidence suggests that they may have been very similar. In this matter we have to take the side of Dr.Shea as he is a recognized academic over the views of an unaccredited anonymous internet poster. Ireland101 (talk) 06:05, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Shea, unlike Pokorny, is not "the great master" of Indo-European etymology as Dave so aptly put it above. If Pokorny gives berga for ancient Macedonian, then it's berga, end of story. If by "Macedonian" Shea means ancient Macedonian, then the Slavic breg is an obvious anachronistic error. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 05:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

No when Shea says Macedonian he means just that, he believes that this word is an example of the continuity of the Macedonian language, ancient to modern. Most respected historians outside of Greece also believe this. Ireland101 (talk) 22:44, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Ancient Macedons were Greek and Greek speakers and Shea is a hoax.

NW greeksNothing to with slavsMegistias (talk) 22:50, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

In that case Shea is wrong, as breg is not ancient Macedonian; it is Slavic, and present not only in what you call "Macedonian", but in the other Slavic languages of the region as well. The "continuity of the Macedonian language" is one of the more pathetic "Macedonist" myths, as it effectively implies that all modern Slavic languages are derived from ancient Macedonian. If your "Macedonian" is derived from ancient Macedonian on account of the word breg, why not Serbian as well? ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 05:22, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ancient macedonian is Hellenic

Macedonian Hellenic A,MAcedonian is Hellenic "The ancient language of the Macedonian kingdom in N. Greece and modern Macedonia during the later 1st millennium BC. Survived until the early 1st millennium AD. Not to be confused with the modern Macedonian language, which is a close relative of the Slavic Bulgarian." but the Language of FYrom is SlavicMegistias (talk) 21:45, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

How is this related to the Bryges or the Ancient ethnic Macedonians.Ireland101 (talk) 23:45, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Shea is unreliable in all aspects.Megistias (talk) 09:59, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ancient Macedons were Greek and Greek speakers

NW greeksNothing to with slavsMegistias (talk) 22:01, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

How is this related to the Bryges? Ireland101 (talk) 23:46, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

It shows that Shea is a hoax and unreliable.Megistias (talk) 23:50, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

That has nothing to do with Shea, and Dr.Shea is defiantly more reliable then some pseudo-Wikipedia wannabe historian.Ireland101 (talk) 04:17, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Keep dreaming but stop disrupting and pov-pushing in pagesMegistias (talk) 09:59, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

You and your tag team friends are the only ones pov pushing by adding un sourced wrong paragraphs to the article.Ireland101 (talk) 04:08, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

If Ireland101 is wrong here then you can easily prove him so by providing sources. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 10:01, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

We have.Slavs had nothing to with ancient Macedons nor is their language today as Shea absurdly claims.Megistias (talk) 11:14, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Um, Theresa, no scholar links the Ancient Macedonian language to modern Macedonian; it's simply a case of having the same name for different reasons. I'm not aware of mr. Shea's academic credentials but his book contains other errors (see Kekrops above) as well as an obvious bias regarding the modern Greek-Macedonian dispute which he lets permeate his overall work. 3rdAlcove (talk) 12:41, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

His wife is from Fyrom [1]Megistias (talk) 12:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Actualy what Dr. Shea is trying to show is the continuity of the Macedonian language from Ancient to present and one example is the word "Bryges", there are no sources to back up the views against this because they are simply wrong. As for the "His wife is from Fyrom" comment, it speaks for itself. Ireland101 (talk) 18:05, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Whatever your opinion is (it doesn't matter, actually), a source that states scholarly consensus has been provided. As for mr. Shea, do we have any info on his academic credentials or do we just know that he wrote a book expressing his feelings on the Greece-RoM dispute? 3rdAlcove (talk) 18:20, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bryges as a name

Why was this removed?

", (possibly of Thracian origin)^[1]"

Megistias (talk) 13:49, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Probably because it conflicts with the nationalist fantasy that slavomacedonians are somehow the descendants of the ancient Macedonians. --Tsourkpk (talk) 21:54, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Someone please put it back in.Megistias (talk) 21:56, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Source for this statement

", and may have originally been a Thracianised tribe of Illyrians."What is this based upon? Megistias (talk) 13:56, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More research guys

Well, since I've been working on the Dorians someone added the Albanian Brigoi in a bulleted list. The problem is you do not start an article with a bulleted list. But, in order to take it out of the bullets and do a proper write-up we have to know if those Brigoi are considered by anyone to have had the same ancestors in the Balkans as our Bryges, the subject if this article. If they are, we need a proper reference and introductory write-up. If they are not they do not belong in this article but in a new stub with some disambig templates at the proper locations. My offhand guess is the name descends from a common people. If that is so we can put them here for now until we get enough material for a related article. BUT - someone has to do the research! How about you ... or maybe you... or you over there....Dave (talk) 22:55, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moschoi

During disambiguation I have stumbled upon Moschoi link in See also section. No idea which people or region does that refer to. Anybody able to disambiguate? --Ruziklan (talk) 23:36, 24 April 2008 (UTC)