Talk:Brittany

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[edit] question

Heres the response to a question I asked - worthy of a wider audence, I think.

Andy, in response to your question, "Is this right? Domnonia & Cornouaille sound very like Dumnonia and Cornwall - part of the Brythonic culture but not part of Brittany." -- tres bizarre, but true! My source is Myles Dillon & Nora Chadwick, The Celtic Realms, but I've seen these names of the Breton kingdoms in other places. If I understand the scholarship correctly, this has spawned disagreements over the origins of these names: were they Medieval English (i.e., the Sassons from beyond the River Tamar & River Severn) coinages, or derived from earlier, prehistoric Celtic names, or perchance the Breton kingdoms borrowed the names currently in use from beyond the Channel? The only certainty in this dispute is that there are far more opinions than evidence. -- User:llywrch 04:43, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Andy G 18:28, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

That Domnonia & Cornouaille sound like Dumnonia and Cornwall isn't surprising since the Bretons are settlers who migrated from Dumnonia and Cornwall and even after they settled retained close (trading) links with their ancestral kingdoms.-- DZ

I agree. The Channel was first a way of communication, not a border. For instance, an abbey in Côtes d'Armor, l'abbaye de Beauport owned four parishes on the Continent and two in Devon, England, until George the VIIIth ; the monks built a harbour to cross over frequently. "Devon" comes from "Domnonae", the eponym of an ancient kingdom in North Brittany. And Cornwall is close to the Breton Cornouaille, even more in their respective language (Kernew in cornish and Kernev in Breton). Gwalarn


[edit] Historical region or administrative region ?

There's an ambiguity in this article which should be resolved. Is it about the historical region (which includes Loire-Atlantique) or the administrative one (excluding Loire-Atlantique) ? _R_ 12:28, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Prehistory

I feel the section on prehistory is getting too long with respect to the rest of the article. IMHO its content should be transferred on an appropriate page with a sum-up here. _R_ 12:36, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of the term 'Great Britain'

In the article I read between the lines that 'Great Britain' was at first just 'Britain'. Then 'Little Britain' was created and as a consequence the original Britain recieved the name 'Great Braitain' to make the distinction clearer. Right? DirkvdM 07:48, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Quite right. The name of Britain followed its people in Armorica (named New Britain or Little Britain, then Brittany). The name of England erased this of Britain (if not in latin) till the XVIIth century.

In breton (Breizh), italien (Bretagna), spanish (Bretana), french (Bretagne)... there is no difference between the name of the island and the one of the peninsula. Le gludic 01:52, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

In Latin, the island was called "Britannia major" while the peninsula's name was "Britannia minor". In relation with those names, some people state that, in English, "Brittany" is a diminutive of "Britain", an other way to say "little Britain". Is that right ? Gwalarn 20:10, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Not likely -- Brittany AFAIK is an anglicization of the French name. If you spelled the premodern pronounciation of Bretagne according to English phonetics you'd get something like Brettanye. Both English and French no longer pronounce most terminal schwas (written <e>)... Brettanye could easily become Brittanye by contamination with Britain (referring in English to insular Britania. Tkinias 18:59, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I thought Great Britain came from it being the largest (greatest) island in the British Isles which also constitutes the bulk of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland? Mammal4 11:19, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reference Question

Does anyone know the name of a waterway that is two words long? Each word is five letters so _____ _____ The name will most likely fit these letters _i_e_ r_n_e

Lotsofissues 05:13, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Rance River or River Rance? Man vyi 08:04, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox

Copied the infobox from Wales. - FrancisTyers 13:13, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Please Man vyi do not change the spelling of my anthem: Bro Gozh Ma Zadoù is its only correct spelling. I know a few things about my country, and this is one of them. The "no-toll roads" reason is just a legend, which tends to prove that Brittany is "land of legends" just like Wales is "land of songs". Broladre.

Pipe the link to Bro Goz ma Zadoù if you want and make it Bro Gozh Ma Zadoù, just don't break the link. Man vyi 18:40, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I have deleted the infobox. FYI Brittany is neither an independent country, nor a federal or administrative entity (unlike Wales). There is already an infobox at Bretagne for the administrative région of Bretagne. Brittany as it is presented in this article is only an historical and cultural entity, it has no official or administrative recognition. Hardouin 01:30, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quite personal

The sentence "The origin of the name Brittany is Dutch; fur traders from Holland settling in France named the region" has been removed. It seems to be a personal belief only.

Good call, anon. Tkinias 19:00, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Breton langage

how about line about the breton wikipedia ? polo


What about the Vannetais language( Golfe du Morbihan)?... The Cornwall and the Gallo languages are not the only ones . Thomas

Vannetais is most often considered a dialect of Breton. _R_ 16:21, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Added some info on the rate of decline of the Breton language in the last 50 years (down by 1 million speakers). Jefight 11:49, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Crêpes etc.

I deleted the random [citation needed] in the section about crêpes. As there are no sources cited anywhere else in the article that one implies that there is something debatable about crêpes being Breton. I've not been to Bretagne, but in Paris it seems to be taken as a given that crêpes/gallettes are a Breton thing. Tkinias 19:05, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I've seen that connection being made in Belgium too. A source would be good however. Piet 19:49, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I think the ṃ referred to the distinction between crêpe de sarrazin and galette de sarrazin. I'm Breton and I can't tell whether this lexical distinction has a sharp or a diffuse boundary, nor where this boundary lies precisely, nor whether it's tied to differences in the recipe. I'll put it back in. _R_ 16:51, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I've been all over Brittany, "Crêperies" are everywhere 81.153.161.222 14:45, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
"Citation needed" template removed again. I think any further re-appearance should be treated as mild vandalism. ---Vernon White 22:58, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Privileges

I removed the following from the article:

However one privilège remains to this day. When the Duchy passed into French hands one condition was that "no toll shall ever be levied on either road or bridge." The E-50 highway from Paris to Brest is comprised in part of the expensive A11 and A81 motorways as far as the Breton frontier, which is the last toll booth before the road continues on to Rennes as the Route Nationale 157. The A84 motorway from Caen in Normandy to Rennes is likewise a toll free road.

If the Act of Union really still applied, the A11 would be toll-free between Ancenis and Nantes, which is not the case. It's true that all roads are toll-free in the administrative région Bretagne, but this particularity arose in the 60s, not in 1532. _R_ 16:15, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is this article a good idea?

I'm really not sure I like the idea of an article about current day France based on purely historical borders. So much of the information here would be better off at Bretagne. In particular, grouping "sights" in Brittany is a poor idea: sights are necessarily either in Bretagne, Loir-et-Atlantique, etc. What is gained by keeping them here? The section on languages is similar: it makes more sense to discuss which languages are spoken in which regions, rather than in which historical duchies...Discussing the modern day climate of a historical region is similarly bizarre, it's like discussing the climate of Van Dieman's land, of the USSR or of Gaul. How did this come to be this way? Stevage 06:01, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

As a French, I think an article about historical Brittany is relevant, because while provinces have been replaced long ago as administrative territorial divisions, the concept is still alive and widely used in France. When we say "I'm spending my vacations in Bretagne", we think about the province, not the region.125.225.69.173 01:33, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Post-Roman history

This:

"With the collapse of the Roman empire, Britton troups from across the Channel moved to people Armorica, emissary in the area, in the process granting him power over the Marches of Nantes and Rennes. At the emperor's death, he was crowned king and his decendants ruled Brittany until the Viking Invasions."

does not make a great deal of sense and appears to disagree with the History of Brittany article.
=== Vernon White (talk) 22:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I have tried to improve this part. Siswrn 21:57, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Seems to me that the whole history section of the article is a mess. It jumps back and forth chronologically, and nowhere is it firmly stated that Brittany's origin can be traced back to immigrants from what is now south west England and Wales fleeing the invading Saxons. It was after all known as Armorica until around that time. 1812ahill (talk) 13:50, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

Mindnet 13:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC) Mindnet There are already some links on the page for accommodation in Brittany. I think adding www.gites-brittany.com would be beneficial as it has many gites and B&B's throughout Brittany that are all privately owned. I'm sure many people reading up on Brittany are interested in finding accommodation for their holidays etc.

I can't see that commercial links for property/holidays have any encyclopaedic value whatsoever. Linkspam > delete. Man vyi 13:46, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I am quite unsure of how this all works but I am guessing that no-one has yet noticed the rather obvious vandalism under the trivia sub-heading (e.g. - Brittany Adair of round rock texas: is a spoiled brat). Inasmuch as I don't know procedure for editing or reporting I will trust that my adding to this page will trigger someone's attention who is familiar with procedures... from A WP fan

There is persistent spamming of this page (and at least 17 others) by an unimportant Wiki that fails to satisfy WP:EL. The comments regarding open Wikis at Wikipedia:External links#Links normally to be avoided #13 should be followed, and this linkspam put to an end. That the site is "non-commercial" does not qualify it for inclusion (and it is actually commercial, since it carries Google ads), and there are many factors that disqualify it and its brethren. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.202.167.98 (talk) 11:20, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Nonsense. In fact nothing on WP precludes the inclusion of a site which offers good information, is properly and regularly maintained and, ideally, increases the learning scope of the project. Quoting policy is missing the point - FYI there are no "rules" on WP - despite what some people chose to believe - only recommendtions or policy advice. And in this case, the advice is that open wikis are not generally to be included; and rightly so as they tend to be empty and all too often neglected or even abused. However, in this case, should you take the time to review one of these sites you will see they offer good information of both a practical and educational nature; they are GOOD external links. I would not have included them otherwise. I do NOT spam Wikipedia and - again FYI - I have edited it continually without doing so for several years. Now we can discuss this rationally or you can continue to visit WP just to delete these links. What is your REAL motivation for doing that I wonder? Marcus22 (talk) 18:04, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
The sites are not "properly maintained", contain almost no content of any value (certainly not "practical and educational") and include at least one quite spectacular libel. You are spamming WP with links that don't come close to matching the guidelines and have been called on this by several people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.202.37.235 (talk) 06:29, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Really? Well as I, personally, have visited two tourist sites I found on those sites - and only on those sites - that self-evidently contradicts your claim that they have no educational value. And how have you decided that they contain no content of any value? I can assume then that you are not English and living in rural France? For if you were, and you spoke no French, I think you would find the English businesses invaluable. May I also ask why you bandy words around like spam? I've edited Wiki for over 4 years, made several thousand edits and I have never - willingly - added "spam". You, by contrast.. I see that all of your edits to Wikipedia consist of deleting these links and re-instating a link to 'Anglo-Info' on the Brittany page - hmmm... do you happen to have a vested commercial interest here? I suspect so. Hence the passion to delete and rubbish perfectly good links. Marcus22 (talk) 16:53, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
      • I have also made several thousand edits to WP over several years. I, however, choose to enjoy WP's embrace of anonymity (and the joys of a dynamic IP address) and see no need to have a profile (thus you have no idea what "all" my edits look like). I reinstated the Angloinfo link becase your removal of it was rampant vandalism (replacing the URL of an existing EL with your pet URL rather than adding a new link - which would still have been spam, if less egregious). As the pre-existsing link is clearly a) full of relevant information not on WP and b) had been accepted for many months, I reinstated it. I have not added it to any of the other articles you spammed, even though it is arguably relevant to some of them. The only person with a suspect commercial interest is you - do you get the revenue from the Google ads, or is it someone else? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.202.37.235 (talk) 17:30, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
  • No point arguing with muppets like this. The guy runs the AngloInfo site and his only edits to Wikipedia are to re-instate that and remove anything he sees as competition. 90.231.2.252 (talk) 15:29, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lesser Britain?

Was Brittany once called "Lesser Britain" as stated in first para.? In English? The names for Britain and Brittany in some languages, e.g. Scottish (Celtic) and Cornish, literally translate as "big" and "small" B. but I'm not sure about this usage in English and perhaps this sentence should go. Siswrn 20:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if "lesser Britain" is stated in English, but I am sure for Latin (Britannia minor) and French (petite Bretagne) in the middle-age, only called "Bretagne" nowadays since there is a "great" Britain which makes the difference. It will be interesting to assure when the isle of Great Britain acquires its present name, and to see if it was simultaneous to the French disuse of "petite Bretagne". Gwalarn 22:24, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
It seems clear in Great Britain#Use and nomenclature Gwalarn 22:43, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Brittany was once called Lesser Britain and that is where the name Great(er) Britain comes from. In French the derivation is more apparent because the French called Great Britain (Grande Bretagne) and Brittany, now, just Bretagne. Marcus22 (talk) 23:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History Section is a Mess

I can't figure out what the second sentence of the first paragraph under "History" thinks it's trying to say:

Although much is remarked of Brittany's ancient Celtic links with Britain and for the sake of its western population, Brittany's modern or political history is stereotyped as merely a French, or "Gallo-Romance" matter.

It is then promptly followed by foaming-at-the-mouth editorial commentary:

This is a horrible misconception, since the Gallo section (part of Latin Europe) of Brittany reforged links with Britain in the first place, albeit as Normandy's "sidekick"

I'm not disputing the facts, as I came here in an attempt to learn them. Instead I'm distrusting what I read because of poor writing and obvious bias. Wikipedia's Achilles tendon shows itself once again.

Krampouz and cidre to all.

[edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Celts

This culture, which has influenced literature, farming, navigation and so much of European life, for 4,000 years, and covers places as diverse as Portugal and Asia Minor, would be worthy of its own project. Modern areas still Celtic include Brittany, Cornwall, Ireland, the Isle of Man, Scotland and Wales. Please weigh in at the proposal Chris 04:22, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why separate articles on Bretagne and Brittany?

I strongly suggest merging the two under Brittany (just as the Normandy article covers all aspects). A redirect from Bretagne to Brittany could be used if necessary. If we start including the national names of regions, there will be no end to it. What about Russian regions? Do we include the Russian forms of all the oblasts as separate articles?!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ipigott (talk • contribs) 07:45, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Bretagne is the name of an administrative region of France, like Haute-Normandie and Basse-Normandie. Brittany, like Normandy, is a historic and cultural region/country which covers more territory than the modern regions of the French state. Man vyi 08:39, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Man vyi, its a question of historic and cultural name for the entire region, and the administrative name. The same concern is apparent when one is confronted by the Kingdom of Gwynedd, verses the principle area of Wales Gwynedd.Drachenfyre (talk) 22:05, 3 February 2008 (UTC)