Talk:British American

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Contents 1 old talk 2 French Americans and Canadians! 3 The 'largest' ethnic group 4 American-Britons? 5 Thomas Paine?

[edit] old talk

Two points: "In an historical context, that terminology would be correct." I don't think it would be wise to call one usage "correct", implying that other possibilities are incorrect. For example, I consider myself a British-American even though my British ancestors left England over four hundred years ago; I don't see a clear-cut line where you can say "well, those people have been living somewhere else for exactly 367.58 years, so they're no longer British-Americans but just Americans." Just because my British ancestors left Britain earlier than some other people's doesn't make me any less British, genetically speaking.

Secondly, "Our society tends to believe in hyphenated-Americanism, despite the fact that one's ancestry may date back to the foundations of this nation." This isn't a very Wikipedia-esque sentence for a few reasons. It refers to "our society", meaning "American society", when Wikipedia is a collaborative and international project, so "our society" should not refer to anything but human society as a whole. It would be even better to avoid first and second person pronouns altogether, since their usage depends largely on who is speaking and who is spoken to, things which change all the time as different people read and write articles. I have changed this to read "American society" instead of "our society", but have made no other changes.

I would like to get others' input before deciding how to fix up the rather POV-sounding second paragraph, as I'm not sure how to convert it into more neutral sentences. Livajo 21:21, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"Today's English population doesn't consider themselves to be German because their ancestors were Anglo-Saxons from Germany."

Being English (whatever that is) doesn't necesarilly mean being descended from Angles, Saxons, Jutes, or any of the German tribes who descended on these shores. Many northern English are just as likely to have Viking ancestry, many more have Roman and ancient British (sometimes referred to as Celtic) bloodlines.

I think you missed the point, or were just eager to inject some more trivia. They could just as easily have said "do modern day english consider themselves viking-english, celtic-english or german-english etc, but it doesn't flow nearly as well. It was an example case to make a point. TastyCakes 17:53, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] French Americans and Canadians!

This article neglects the French part of Canadian, which is rather equal so much as to be witnessed when one looks at the Coat of Arms of Canada. Louisiana Territory was twice the size of the British colonies in America. I am part French with Anglo-Norman on one side and Norman French on another, so why are the French not seen as British? Does anbody know about the Angevin Empire or Hundred Years' War? Does anybody know that during those older times, a lord in England will likely have holdings in France as well? English claims to the French throne is something you should research. I know my Landed property family's social status in those times(gentry and peerage). They were in the Pilgrimage of Grace, Queen Mary I of England's recusants, Regnans in Excelsis, Gunpowder Plot, Cavaliers and Tory into Jacobitism and also Victorian era followers of Anglo-Catholicism. The Bruce, Balliol, Howard, Stuart, Neville and Percy families figure much into my family's historical encounters. I take it as no surprise that French should be included in this article. Traditional antagonisms must play no part in editing! Canada is the only monarchy in which French people inhabit by a majority of the populace and the Queen of Canada is chiefly in the British monarchy. If the Irish as Catholics don't agree with being considered British, what of French Calvinism having had historical ties to the Anglophile Duke of Burgundy? Never mind that Catholics were the Royalists during the French Revolution and supported by Protestant King George III of Great Britain, over the Huguenot Republicans. I have both ancestors and the French side including the Norman Conquest is 5/8s of my great grandparents's surnames, with another 1/8 being a hybrid English patronymic of a French name. The other 2/8s are a South Saxon and a Danish name. I still consider myself British because of our orientation. My Québécois great grandmother used to have afternoon spots of tea. So, how are the French in either Canada or America somehow exempt from this article? I hope that my information right here is no doubt of the validity in which I speak. One more thing...I expect that if I ever edit this article, that nobody objects to the French included. ScapegoatVandal 04:34, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, I will object for one. This is not an article about Canada. It is an article about people of British heritage in the United States. Perhaps you want French Canadian article or want to start the the Canadian American, French American, or British Canadian article. Rmhermen 13:57, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

You're needlessly or confusingly objecting. I was commenting on a presence of French in British identity, yet you seemingly have ignored everything but the last sentence! Please, I deal with education, not ignorance! You sound trollish. ScapegoatVandal 14:41, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This is an article about British heritage in the United States of America, not about French heritage in the United Kingdom which I am certain is discussed elsewhere. French Canadian heritage in the United States would be discussed in its own article perhaps but also in Canadian American and French American. Rmhermen 15:01, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

The two are not mutually exclusive; British and French. That's what my whole paragraph is about! Really and truly, what is your valid argument? Read over the paragraph to find out how you are wrong and not even having a background about Anglo-French relations of any place, whether in Europe or colonies. ScapegoatVandal 15:19, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, we could write an encyclopdia with one article called "Everything" but it would hardly by useful or reflective of the usages of the world. I wonder at your jumping to the conclusion that I am unversed in British/French/American/Canadian history and relations merely because I disagree with you. This is hardly an appropriate response. Rmhermen 16:30, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps you can refute my paragraph, instead of mock it? ScapegoatVandal 16:43, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, let me try and get this straight.. you're complaining because the article doesn't count French people as British? Please. If you want to point out that the article doesn't mention large scale mixing of Europeans in the new world, which makes it hard to categorize people as "British-American", fine. But you seem to just want to discuss your own convoluted genetic background. Yes at one point the lines between the states of England and France were more blurred than they are now. But most of that was centuries before significant migration and much of it before Britain and France were even the states they are today. It's pretty obvious French people are not a subset of British people. You seem to be trying to waste people's time with a pointless little monologue about your background and I would urge you to stop. End of discussion?

However, on a related note, it says the "overwhelming majority" of Canadians in the US are british. A look at Canadian census data will show you this isn't likely to be true, about a quarter are French (as scapegoatvandal was apparently trying to point out..) and I would assume make up a large part of Canadian-Americans thanks to the Acadians in New Orleans and large scale migration into the North East. Canadians from other parts of Europe exist in large numbers, and non-europeans are I think around 10%. A similar argument can be made against "the overwhelming majority" of people marking "American" being British. TastyCakes 17:48, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The 'largest' ethnic group

These lines seem contradictory:

'British-Americans are the largest ethnic group of Americans, as there are 57.6 million British-Americans and more than 100 million Americans with significant British ancestry.'

'These figures make British Americans one of the largest "ethnic" groups in the U.S. when counted collectively (although the Census Bureau does not count them collectively, as each of the above is a separate ethnic group, that is English or Scottish or Welsh or Scots-Irish; nor does the Bureau include a separate group for Northern Irish people). The Germans and Hispanic are the largest self-reported ethnic groups in the nation.'

Can someone explain how this works? Which is the biggest ethnic group? Kohran 16:55, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

This is interesting.

The first paragraph could be taken that 57.6 million Americans identify as British or one of the derivative ethnic groups, with 100 million Americans not identifying as British but recognising that they have some British heritage. So, I would say that this works.

The second needs to be rewritten. It says that the British are an ethnic group, but are not an ethnic group as the US census counts Welsh, English, Scottish and Scots-Irish separately. But, it says that the Germans are an ethnic group, and that includes Germans, Danes, Dutch and several others, which are far more distinct from each other than the forementioned British peoples! As for Hispanics, this grouping is made up of people even MORE distinct amongst themselves. Enzedbrit 23:37, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Germans are an ethnic group on their own, that does not include the Danes,Dutch etc...they are nothing to do with Germany...dont know where you got that information from.. The British people's are not the same ethnic group and are just as disticnt as other european countries, but becuase of the strong cultural tie, and they are what makes up Britain today, they can be counted together (As also in the UK). This does not mean that a person doesnt loose ties to their specific country of origin..Scotland and England are Britons but are very disticnt peoples/cultures. Hispania 16:55, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] American-Britons?

I don't see a category for American-Britons, i.e., US expats who have settled in the UK and/or attained British citizenship.

T. S. Eliot, Henry James, Sam Wanamaker, Larry Sanders, Oona King, Jenny Jerome (mother of Winston Churchill) et al are in this category.

That really isn't the point of this article. You would need to look under British ethnic groups, not American ones. Rmhermen 20:45, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Granted, but I wasn't criticizing this article for not describing such people, but saying that Wikipedia in general should have an article or entry, and that this article shoould have a "see also" thingie directing people to such an article or list. After all, I came across this article only after first searching for an article or list of Americans who have settled in Britain, not the other way around. I have since located a wikipedia list of "American expatriates in the UK" but that is not necessarily the same as "American Britons" who can be British nationals of American origin (either immigrants to the UK from the US or the children of one or such immigrants or expats). I think there is a need for such an article or list, and one that distinguishes "American Britons" from American expats in the UK", the latter of which may just be Americans who happen to live in the UK, whether on a temporary or permanent basis, and are not necessarily British citizens.

I looked through Category:Ethnic groups in the United Kingdom and can't find any related article. Perhaps just too small a group to warrant notice. Rmhermen 17:32, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, not so small. This BBC analysis of the 2001 census data shows 155,030 UK residents were born in the US, 0.27% of the whole population. On the other hand, this page shows 678,000 UK-born people living in the US. -- Arwel (talk) 13:46, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Not so small at all. I can't quote any references for this, but my understanding is that, until the recent expansion of the European Union which has resulted in mass migration of Eastern Europeans to Great Britain and excluding migration to GB from the Indian subcontinent, for many years annual arrivals from the USA have contributed the greatest number of migrants. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.2.200.121 (talk) 10:12, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thomas Paine?

The dude was an Englishman, not an American. His work Common Sense was said to be authored by "an Englishman," and he canstantly speaks as an Englishman addressing Americans; not s an American. He was here in revolutionary times, sure, and then he was in France in the early days of their revolution. He's not an American, though he played an important role in American history. Why is he shown as a British American? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.22.172.224 (talk) 03:48, 20 March 2008 (UTC)