Talk:Brenda Ann Spencer

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[edit] We Need More on This Article

Yes, it was small for a "massacre," however, it is still important as it was the first documented case of a school shooting in the US (I don't know if it was the first in the world). Also, it has significance as it was committed by a minor and happened in a learning institute, which would later have more focus upon, such as Columbine, Virginia Tech (I don't think those shootings were committed by minors though). Babando 00:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Take a look at school shooting. -213.115.77.102 (talk) 15:32, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Animal Torture

I removed the text about animal torture, the source cited was a random e-mail. Furthermore, Channel 4's revealing documentary about Spencer made no mention of this.

I recall the papers at the time mentioned that she liked to torture and kill small animals.Her dad bought her a gun to shoot at birds.jeanne (talk) 17:32, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Snopes

This page seems to be blatantly taken from the snopes page on the same topic.

So what? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.153.201.53 (talk) 14:34, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mass murder

One should reconsider calling her a 'mass murderer'. It does not seem appropriate for me for two respects:

  • She did kill two people which are not 'masses'
  • She was sixteen years old when she commited these murders
I agree, for the first reason stated above. I'm deleting the sentence because it is inaccurate and inconsistent with the definition given in Mass murderer
I agree it's not mass murder, but why is her age relevant?
Age is irrelevant to being (or not being) a mass murderer. Arguably, her intent was to commit mass murder. However I agree with the deleted sentence. 66.17.105.226 19:14, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I think because any Brenda Ann Spencer information is relevant.

[edit] Removed statement

Deleted sentence: "She is one of the few known female mass murderers in United States history."

--Fred 19:27, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mistake

There is a mistake in this article. It says that "I Don't Like Mondays" reached #1 on the UK charts in July of 1979. The album wasn't released until October of that year. I'm not sure if anyone wants to fix that.

Not a mistake. The song was released prior to the album.

[edit] Song

Should the song actually be redirected here? I mean it's different. WestJet

  • I agree with WestJet. Like many big musical hits on wikipedia, the song should have its own page. Admittedly, they should be tightly interlinked. Frevidar
I agree as well. There is no reason why older songs like I Don't Like Mondays get reduced to subsections of existing articles while individual Britney Spears songs merit their own articles. The articles on I Don't Like Mondays and Brenda Ann Spencer should be separate, but interlinked. 66.17.105.226 19:14, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the song should be re-relised in the uk.

I think the song should have its own article --Melly42 09:36, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Have done so; I Don't Like Mondays. (Yorkshiresky 12:28, 6 August 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Copyvio?

This page, particularly the third paragraph, reads too much like a direct paste of the snopes page (as another editor has noted above). Should it be tagged as potential copyvio until rewritten? DWaterson 00:48, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] student ?

was Brenda Spencer a student at the time of the shootings? Thanks Hmains 03:13, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Brenda Spencer was a 10th grade student a Patrick Henry High School at the time of the shootings.70.181.238.100 07:52, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Messed Up

This is messed up. When she was sixteen years old, she got a rifle for Christmas? Wtf...--71.246.252.5 21:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Seeing as Brenda was a minor,wasn't her father held liable for her actions;especially in view of his having purchased the rifle as a Christmas present?jeanne (talk) 06:07, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removed link for school

I removed the red link for Cleveland Elementary School. It no longer exists [1] and thus is unlikely to generate a Wikipedia article. --GentlemanGhost 12:48, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent Edits

I have reverted all of the recent edits to this article. Please make sure any sources used are Wikipedia:Reliable sources, which does not include Snopes, IMDB trivia, Song Facts, opinion pieces, or self-published personal views (the SDCDA PDF). In particular, because this is an article about a living person, the requirements for sources are much stricter, and must come from high quality neutral sources. Make sure to thoroughly read (and understand) the Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons policy before editing this article. Collectonian 20:19, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you undid my recent edit. From the Union-Trib article:

"In the 28 years since that tragedy, violence has plagued schools from St. Louis to Stockton, from Littleton, Colo., to Santee. But when 16-year-old Brenda Spencer used a .22-caliber rifle to kill Wragg and custodian Michael Suchar and wound nine others, the term “schoolyard shooting” was almost unknown."

and

"A SWAT team captured Spencer after a six-hour standoff. Today, she's in the California Institution for Women in Corona, serving a prison sentence of 25 years to life."

While this doesn't support everything currently in the article, it does establish some basics. --GentlemanGhost 21:20, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I did not see the line confirming where she is. I had to undo your revision again, though because you are also changed the category tags. However, I let the reference stay until a better one is found and fixed it to be properly formatted and cited. Collectonian 21:28, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Excellent. The formatting looks good. I don't know if it matters, but the source is technically from the Oct. 6 edition of the San Diego Union-Tribune. However, I thought the link to the web version of the article would be more useful to people.
As far as the categories go, I thought that defaultsort pretty much put everything in the right order, so I was trying to clean up the extraneous text. Sorry if it screwed something up. Thanks, GentlemanGhost 21:37, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I clarified the reference to note that SignOn is the online version of the San Diego Union-Tribune. :) I think the Default Sort is okay, except one of the cats was using something different from it so it needed to stay :) Collectonian 21:39, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
  • To Collectonian: Please explain which sources in particular are disputed and why you do not think each source qualifies as a reliable source. Revolutionaryluddite 22:44, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
In particular, why don't you think Time magazine is a reliable source? Revolutionaryluddite 22:46, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I explained it above. None of these are valid: Snopes, IMDB trivia, Song Facts, opinion pieces, or self-published personal views (the SDCDA PDF), especially for an article on a living person. Time wasn't in the last version, unless its the one that is messed up (showing as Cite has no text). Also, the reverts were explained and then clarified here. If you have further questions about why those sources are not valid for this article, please read the policies noted above or ask.
Again, why don't you think these are valid? Please comment below as to why each source specifically is not valid.Revolutionaryluddite 06:29, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I already have told you, twice now, which links are invalid and why. They do NOT meet the WP:Reliable sources guidelines. To help clarify further, I have struck through those below which do not meet the requirements for use as a source. The rest are fine, if properly cited where they are used and are used appropriately. A revert was done because there were multiple bad sources (and one broken one) and in an article about a living person the revert was the more appropriate option. With living person biographies and articles, such things are handled much more strictly than on a regular article (if it had been a regular article, a note would have been left and a chance to correct given first). If only the good ones are added back, then it is fine. Collectonian 07:17, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Okay. Revolutionaryluddite 16:56, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Would the Good Housekeeping that I found later qualify as a reliable source? I didn't know the magazine published news pieces about current events until I found that one article. Revolutionaryluddite 16:58, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
That's actually a good question. Good Housekeeping isn't generally considered a news source since I don't think they tend to do the same level of verification and sourcing that a newspaper or even more academic publication might. If it is well sourced, it might be usable, but if a better alternative can be found that would be better. Collectonian 21:26, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Ten sources were added, all of which were removed for not being reliable sources:

The only possible problems I can see are:
The use of Snopes as a secondary source for most of the information. With its removal, everything else in the article would be the same.
The use of imbd for The Breakfast Club reference. This is such an obscure minor trivia point that the sentence should be removed entirely.
The use of songfacts for the bit about the 'Mondays' song doing well in the charts. This is forgetable, and the sentence should be removed as well.
Otherwise, I don't understand what's being objected to. Revolutionaryluddite 23:14, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
The minor factoid that exactly 36 shots were fired is of arguable notablity. Since there's only the WP:SPS supporting it, I can see why it should be removed. Revolutionaryluddite 06:29, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I can see why four minor sources out of the ten might be objected to, but I still do not understand the objection to the six other sources. Revolutionaryluddite 06:29, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

What was reverted without explanation with later explanation read:

On Monday, January 29, 1979, sixteen-year-old Brenda Ann Spencer used a rifle to wound eight children and one police officer at Cleveland Elementary School in San Diego, and to kill school principal Burton Wragg and custodian Mike Suchar.[1][2] The two men used their bodies to successfully shield the children.[3] She fired off a full thirty-six shots[4] before she gave up. + The school was just across the street from her house.[2] She used the rifle that she had recently been given for Christmas by her father[3] as he shot out from inside her house.[5] Police officers sorrounded it, and Spencer kept them away for six hours.[3] + Time reported that "..."Why did she do it?" asked an eight-year-old boy. Unfortunately, no one in authority could answer that question."[6] When asked why she had committed the crime, Spencer replied, "I don't like Mondays; this livens up the day."[2][1][7] She also said that "I had no reason for it, and it was just a lot of fun", "It was just like shooting ducks in a pond", and "[The children] looked like a herd of cows standing around; it was really easy pickings."[1] Aftermath + Psychatric examinations of Spencer revealed her history of substance abuse and obsession with violent films.[3] Later evaluations pointed to her parent's divorce[8] and her jealousy twoard other students from nuclear families as a major motive. She pled guilty to two counts of murder and assault with a deadly weapon, and was sentenced to prison for 25 years to life, currently being served at The California Institution for Women in Corona."[7] She has been eligible for parole four times and has been turned down each time, most recently in 2005. She will be eligible for parole again in 2009.[1] District Attorney Bonnie Dumanis said in 2005 that "Brenda Spencer remains an unquestionable risk of harm to society if released. She shattered the lives of many innocent people and they are still healing more than 25 years later."[7] + In 2005, she claimed that she was drunk and under the influence of PCP during the incident. She also stated that her father, Wallace Spencer, had sexually abused her as a child-- something she never said during the earlier years of her incarceration-- and that the goverment and her own attorney conspired to hide her drug test results.[1] In her last parole hearing, she stated that "I'm very deeply sorry for what I have done to my victims and their families and friends. Not a day goes by that I don't think about what I did."[7] Media responses Spencer's crime, her inital lack of remorse, and her inability to provide a serious explanation for her actions when captured inspired the song "I Don't Like Mondays" by The Boomtown Rats, written by musician Bob Geldof.[1] Spencer's parents tried in vain to prevent the song's release; it became a #1 hit in 32 different countries.[9] The quote "I don't like Mondays" also appears written on a wall in the 1985 film The Breakfast Club.[10] References <references />

Copied here just for convienience sake. Revolutionaryluddite 23:21, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Aside from the lack of sources, the current article also needs clean-up. Revolutionaryluddite 23:23, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notability

Is there a Wikipedia guideline for notability for murderers and/or school shootings? It's a sad fact that murder is not an uncommon event and not every murder is notable, so I can understand why we wouldn't try to list them all. But surely, this one is more notable than many. As the San Diego Union-Tribune article I just added as a reference says, this event occurred at a time when school shootings were unknown. Also, its impact is reflected in the fact that it influenced an artist in another part of the world to write a song about it. --GentlemanGhost 21:09, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

The regular notability for people guidelines would apply to them as well. Specifically "A person is presumed to be notable enough for a standalone article if they have received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject." So far, only one reliable secondary source seems to have been found which mostly mentions her in passing (which would not be significant coverage). Collectonian 21:28, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
At the time, it received plenty of news coverage, but it happened so long ago that the sources are primarily offline. I'd probably have to go digging through microfiche archives at the library to find them. The current reference is not the ideal source, but it seemed a reasonable placeholder until a better source can be identified. --GentlemanGhost 21:44, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
True. Some newspapers have their archives online, but charge, while the microfiche archives are still free (I have fond memories of researching like that). Another option is some of the big online databases of articles, which are often accessible for free on college campuses (if you live near one). I have access to those as I work for a university, but unfortunately I have no time for much researching right now. Collectonian 21:49, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Good Housekeeping published a retrospective article on the tragedy called "Look back in sorrow" that I found in its entriety on the online database called 'Infotrac'. It states that:
That wasn't the case on January 29, 1979, when Grover Cleveland Elementary became the target in the country's first high-profile school shooting, ground zero in an undeclared war in which children shoot children. The morning school bell had just rung in the quiet San Diego suburb, and children were trickling into their classrooms when a 16-year-old girl named Brenda Spencer took aim through the telescopic sight of her .22-caliber rifle from her house across the street.
Principal Burton Wragg was in the front office having a last cup of coffee with sixth-grade teacher Daryl Barnes when they heard what sounded like firecrackers going off outside. "Pop, pop, pop" is how Barnes remembers it. Wragg charged out the front door while Barnes headed for a side door to investigate. As Barnes looked toward the front of the school, he saw Wragg stooping over a crying child on the ground. Suddenly, the principal spun around and fell backwards into some bushes, a red stain spreading across his chest. Barnes grabbed a couple of children and herded them into the office, shouting at the secretary to call the police. He rushed back outside to pick up another fallen child and heard three more shots ring out, realizing as he scrambled back to safety that he was now in the sniper's sights. As Barnes tried to calm the panicky children, he spotted custodian Mike Suchar with a blanket in his hand, running toward Wragg. "Before I could scream a warning, he spun. I heard him say, `My God, I've been hit,' before he fell. Then a whole carload of children came up, and I was screaming, Get the car out of here, get out!" The car screeched away.
Several miles away, in the intensive care unit of Alvarado Hospital, the young charge nurse, Joyce Warren, heard the alarm go off for a "Code Blue"--an external disaster. She called dispatch and was stunned to hear the news: There had been a shooting at an elementary school, and casualties were expected. As police barricaded the neighborhood and deployed the SWAT team, reporters from the local newspaper began calling residences nearby. By chance, they reached Brenda Spencer, who readily admitted she was the one firing at the school; the rifle, they would later learn, had been a Christmas gift from her father. When asked why she was doing it, Brenda replied matter-of-factly: "I don't like Mondays. This livens up the day." By the time it was all over, Wragg and Suchar were dead, and a policeman and eight children were wounded. Revolutionaryluddite 23:39, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
It also reported:
Brenda pleaded guilty to two counts of first-degree murder, eight counts of assault with a deadly weapon, and one count of assault on a peace officer. She was sentenced to 25 years to life in prison. Because there was no trial, few details about her family or her past came to light. The Spencers were divorced; Brenda and her older brother lived with their father. Kids in the neighborhood would later say Brenda had a reputation for torturing cats and had dug a series of tunnels in her backyard; adults would describe her as quiet and a loner. The year before the shooting, Brenda and a friend were caught vandalizing Cleveland Elementary--throwing paint in classrooms, overturning desks--but the incident was treated as a typical juvenile prank.
The San Diego County district attorney's (DA) office, whose investigation of Brenda Spencer eventually filled dozens of boxes, privately concluded that she was a sociopath. "We interviewed a friend of hers who admitted the two of them had been planning to kill someone for some time," says Andrea Crisanti, the deputy DA currently assigned to monitor the case in the event Brenda requests parole. "They decided they wanted to kill a cop, to see what that would feel like. Their first plan was to go up to a policeman sitting in a patrol car, and Brenda would go to the passenger window and distract him, and the friend would take Brenda's .22 and shoot him from the driver's side. Then they thought maybe they'd handcuff him to the steering wheel and shoot him with his own service revolver. Then they decided they would lure him into a public rest room--throw eggs at the car or something--and swing an ax and kill him there. This is the mind-set of Brenda Spencer."
After police arrived at the school, Brenda Spencer barricaded herself inside the house for more than six hours; when she finally surrendered, police found more than 200 rounds of ammunition in the house, which investigators described as filthy. During the siege, police commandeered a garbage truck and parked it in front of the Spencer house, trying to block the school from Brenda's line of fire.
Not long after Brenda Spencer went to jail, Wallace Spencer, her father, married her 17-year-old cellmate. They had a child together, and the little girl attended Christy's preschool. She resembled Brenda
It bothers her that Brenda Spencer never has accepted responsibility; she has at various times alleged that police SWAT team members actually shot the children, or that she was on hallucinogenic drags at the time and prosecutors faked a clean toxicology report, or that she didn't understand the guilty plea when she signed it.
For almost 20 years now, Wallace Spencer has maintained a public silence about his daughter's crime. He and his ex-wife have attended Brenda's parole hearings, and prison authorities say Brenda receives occasional visits from members of her family.
Revolutionaryluddite 23:44, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

(back indent) I agree that most school shooters would not be notable, but this incident-- like the sniper in the tower-- is notable because it was one of the first attempted mass murders in modern American History and probably the first widely-reported school shooting.[2] [3] [4] [5]. Revolutionaryluddite 23:54, 11 November 2007 (UTC)