Talk:Brainwashing/Archive 2

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

removed "totally disputed" notice

I have made some more changes, enough that (if they stick) I believe that the article will not substantially misinform anyone. I still would like to review Lifton's book, sharpen up my memory on the conclusions he and Schein reached, and then see what can be done to improve the article. I suspect that much of the problem with the original article can be written off to vague definitions of brainwashing that allowed many relatively benign manipulations to be called brainwashing, that were followed by denials by others that amounted to saying that the relatively benign manipulatios did not meet the strict definition of "brainwashing". I may not remember the Schein and Lifton materials well enough to be sure that the article has produced a full description of the hard-ball version of the technique as used by the CCP.

I suppose that one ancillary problem is: does it make a difference whether one is arrested and thrown into a "commune" where brainwashing is practiced, or one enters voluntarily and with full disclosure of the likely consequences and the methodologies to be used. If somebody says that s/he will remake my mind according to his/her prescriptions by the use of classical brainwashing techniques, then if I voluntarily submit to this person because he/she has a doctor of divinity from Cambridge Theological Institution (of Cambridge, MA)  ;-) , have I removed from that person the responsibility to behave ethically according to some external standard? Or can s/he henceforth do with me as she or he desires?

Another ancillary ethical question would be whether it is o.k. to use brainwashing techniques to try to rehabilitate prisoners who have been convicted of felonies. P0M 17:38, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Brainwashing and "cults"

One of the most prominent advocates of this theory was the controversial Margaret Singer who was discredited, when her psychological theory of 'mind control' was declared "not scientific" by the American Psychological Association [1].

I've removed this claim. The reference not only comes from the Scientology-operated 'new' Cult Awareness Network -- hardly an unbiased party on the subject -- but a quick search of the reference shows that it never even mentions the American Psychological Association or the words "not scientific". The only parts of the claim it supports is that in CAN's opinion Dr. Singer was controversial and was discredited. -- Antaeus Feldspar 20:49, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I have reverted Feldspar's removal. The brainwashing controversy is very well documented. I have added a link with a collection of documents available at http://www.cesnur.org/testi/APA_Documents.htm. Documents include:
  1. Brief of amici curiae, in the version originally signed by APA and dated February 10, 1987, in the case David Molko and Tracy Leal vs Holy Spirit Association for the Unification of World Christianity, et al.
  2. Motion of APA to withdraw as amicus curiae in the Molko case (March 27, 1987).
  3. APA Memorandum on APA activities regarding the Molko case (July 11, 1989).
  4. Last draft of the DIMPAC report.
  5. APA's Board of Social and Ethical Responsibility for Psychology (BSERP) Memorandum of May 11, 1987, with two enclosures.
  6. Order by the Superior Court of the State of California in and for the County of Alameda in the case Margaret Singer et al. vs American Psychological Association et al. (June 17, 1994).
--Zappaz 21:00, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This is a much better citation, but the fact that changes are still needed is evidenced by the fact that if you go to the only one of those documents which contains the quoted phrase "not scientific", you'll find that although it claims that to be a quote from the Molko brief, it isn't. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:03, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I support the recent reversion made by Antaeus Feldspar. If some business, e.g., a tobacco company, claims that their product does not contain chemical agent X, it is not POV to point out that a chemical analysis would be a way to decide whether their claims are true or the government's claims are true. P0M 18:53, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Patrick, there is a long list of scholarly articles and books that challenge the brainwashing theories advanced by anti-cultists. The list above is just a series of documents pertaining to Singer. There is a long list of citacions from other books and articles that discredit brainwashing in the context of NRMs and "cults". See below. --Zappaz 20:38, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  1. Anthony, Dick. 1990. "Religious Movements and 'Brainwashing' Litigation." in Dick Anthony and Thomas Robbins, In Gods We Trust. New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction.
  2. Anthony, Dick, and Thomas Robbins. 1994. "Brainwashing and Totalitarian Influence," in Encyclopedia of Human Behavior, Vol 1: 457-471.
  3. Anthony, Dick, and Thomas Robbins. 1991. "Law, Social Science and the 'Brainwashing' exception to the First Amendment," Behavioral Science Law. 10/1
  4. Barker, Eileen, 1984. "The Making of a Moonie: Choice or Brainwashing?". New York: Basil Blackwell. 305 pps.
  5. Barker, Eileen, 1982. "Who'd Be a Moonie? A Comparative Study of Those Who Join the Unification Church in Britain." in Brian Wilson (ed.), The Social Impact of New Religious Movements. New York: Rose of Sharon Press.
  6. Bromley, David G. 1983. "Conservatorships and Deprogramming: Legal and Political Prospects." in Bromley, David G. and James T. Richardson, (eds). The Brainwashing/Deprogramming Controversy. Lewiston, NY: Edwin Mellen Press. 267-293.
  7. Bromley, David G. and James T. Richardson, Eds. 1983. "The Brainwashing/Deprogramming Controversy". Lewiston, NY: Edwin Mellen Press. 367 pps.
  8. Cialdini, Robert B. 1993. "Influence: Science and Practice". New York: HarperCollins College Publishers. Third Edition.
  9. Davis Joseph E., 1993. "Thought Control, Totalism and The Extension of the Anti-Cult Critiques Beyond the 'Cults'". Dexter, MI: Tabor House. 77 pps.
  10. Fort, J. 1985. "What Is 'Brainwashing,' and Who Says so?" in B. Kilborne, (ed.), Scientific Research and New Religions: Divergernt Perspectives . San Francisco: American Association for the Advancement of Science. 57-63.
  11. Grinsburg, Gerald, and James T. Richardson, 1998. "'Brainwashing'" Evidence in Light of Daubert. in Law and Science: Current Legal Issues". Hellen Reece Editor, 265-288.
  12. Richardson, James T., and Massimo Introvigne, 2001. "'Brainwashing' Theories in European Parliamentary and Administrative Reports on 'Sects' and 'Cults.'" Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion. 40/2(June): 143-168.
  13. Robbins, Thomas, 2001. "Combatting 'cults' and 'Brainwashing' in the United States and Western Europe: A Comment on Richardson and Introvigne's Report." Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion. 40/2(June): 169-175.
  14. Soper, J. Christopher, 2001. "Tribal Instince and Religious Persecution: Why Do Western European States Behave So Badly?" Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion. 40/2(June): 177-180.
  15. Massimo Introvigne, and James T. Richardson, 2001. "Western Europe, Postmodernity, and the Shadow of the French Revolution: A Response to Soper and Robbins." Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion. 40/2(June): 181-185
  16. Richardson, James T. 1997. "'Brainwashing' Theories in European Parliamentary and Administrative Reports on 'Cults' and 'Sects,'"
  17. Richardson, James T. 1997. "Sociology, 'Brainwashing' Claims About New Religion, and Freedom of Religion". in P. Jenkins and S. Kroll-Smith (eds.), Sociology on Trial: Sociologists As Expert Witnesses. New York: Praeger.
  18. Richardson, James T. 1996. "'Brainwashing' Claims and Minority Religions Outside the United States: Cultural Diffusion of a Questionable Concept in the Legal Arena," Brigham Young University Law Review, No. 4, 873-904.
  19. Richardson, James T. 1993. "A Social Psychological Critique of 'Brainwashing' Claims About Recruitment to New Religions." in David Bromley and Jeffrey K. Hadden, (eds.) The Handbook of Cults and Sects in America. Greenwich, CT: JAI Press. 75-97.
  20. Richardson, James T. 1991. "Cult/Brainwashing Cases and the Freedom of Religion." Journal of Church and State. 33: 55-74.
  21. Richardson, James T. and Brock Kilbourne. 1983. "Classical and Contemporary Applications of Brainwashing Theories: A Comparison and Critique" in David G. Bromley and James T. Richardson (eds.) The Brainwashing/Deprogramming Controversy. New York: Edwin Mellen. 29-45.
The problem is you want a double standard; when there's evidence of wrongdoing, you want each cult to be judged separately; when there's a statement that certain research was found to have been lacking in scientific rigor, you want that to be converted into a blanket statement that the entire notion was found pseudoscientific and that all cults have thus been absolved of the charge. You can't have it both ways, though that would never stop you. -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:31, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This is not about me, or even you, Antaeus. This is about writing articles for an encyclopedia that has NPOV as its main guiding principle. I am ptroviding references to substantiate a simple fact: that brainwashing theories peddled by anti-cultists are more about ideology than scientific rigor. --02:38, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Your text, Antaeus (removed yet again):
Whether they do so or not is a matter for objective determination in individual cases.
Can be left there if you do some research and provide citacions in which these "objective determinations" have been conducted in a scientific manner. Otherwise it is the sole expression of your POV. Sorry. --Zappaz 02:44, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[P0M]: Zappaz, why do you put "objective determinations" into scare quotes? Please avoid rhetorical tricks. Is it is your understanding that objective determinations cannot be made, then say so and explain how you can justify such an extraordinary claim.

[P0M]: I don't follow your reasoning. A statement was made to the effect that when contending claims have been made about some matter, then the claims are just that pending serious research. If you want to say that the scientific research has already been done, well and good, but that doesn't alter the validity of the other sentence. The expectation, if one is going to use research to settle contending (possibily ideologically motivated) claims is that the research should be done. Your reasoning is oddly spiral, i.e., sort of circular. You will not permit an assertion that scientific research is essential to true knowledge until such time as the scientific research is actuall--y done.

[P0M]: To assert that first there must be "research and ... citations [to cases] in which these objective determinations have been conducted in a scientific manner (in what other manner might an objective determination be made in such a case?), and only later can one state that scientific research to settle the question ought to be helpful, has everything going in the wrong direction. That sounds to me like a tobacco company saying, "First prove scientifically that spoking tobacco products is bad for the consumer's health, and only then can you ask the government or some other competent authority to conduct scientific proof." A tobacco company might say that, but I would have to question their motivation for doing so. P0M 07:54, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

OK, I see your point. Now please go back to the origin of this debate: the deletion of text by Antaeus. I think I have provided enough substance to put the text back. --Zappaz 17:45, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I've been objecting to removal of the tail end of the paragraphthat you most recently removed. P0M 22:23, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
And in regard to the text by Antaeus: Whether they do so or not is a matter for objective determination in individual cases., my argument is that this is just Antaeus' POV. It needs to be attributed it to maintain NPOV. --Zappaz 17:47, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I totally fail to follow your reasoning. The paragraph represented a covert argument that is allegedly used by some religious groups, and, in doing so, it left the encyclopedia giving tacit agreement to (the mere assertion of) their innocence on the more serious charges. So something needed to be said to pull the covers on that bit of rhetorical manipulation whether it was intended or not.P0M 22:23, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Obviously, your research skills are lacking, since it's not me who added the text. I'm just the one who restored it after you decided that, unlike any statement that favors cults, it needed to be attributed in order to stay in the article. -- Antaeus Feldspar 18:26, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I did not added that text either. So the best action is then to delete the whole unreferenced unattributed paragraph rather that making a lame attempt to rebut it with an additional unreferenced and unattributed POV. Two wrongs don't make a right. That is whay I have done now. --Zappaz 20:12, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Do you mean that the first part of the paragraph was wrong and the last sentence was wrong, so the whole thing was wrong? Something may be uncited but true. Then the question should be whether the uncited claim looks interesting enough to get somebody to supply the missing citations. Disapproving of your reasons for chopping things out does not mean that I necessarily approve of what is there. See my somewhat earlier remarks below. P0M 22:23, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[P0M:] It took me a while, working with the history pages, to see what Zappaz actually did. He removed the whole paragraph:

It should be noted that some religious groups, especially those of Hindu and Buddhist origin, openly state that they seek to improve the natural human mind by spiritual exercises. Intense spiritual exercises have an effect on the mind, for example by leading to an altered state of consciousness. These groups do not, however, proclaim that they use coercive techniques to acquire or retain converts. Whether they do so or not is a matter for objective determination in individual cases.

[P0M:] He evidently did so in order to eliminate the final sentence. His argument for removing the paragraph appears to be that he didn't write it and Feldspar didn't write it. That reasoning, in my opinion, is flawed. The content of the paragraph is relevant. People have been accused of doing certain things. They admit to doing some of those things or to doing them in a less intense way. To do so is actually a strong stance to take in a debate: Stipulate to what is true and/or does not hurt your own case, because it is pointless to defend something that doesn't actually need defending. If so-and-so is accused of being a Marxist, a Green, and a spy, there is no reason for him to try to deny the allegation that he is a Marxist or the allegation that he is a Green -- especially if he is indeed a Marxist and a Green. The good debater will say that , yes, it is true what the opposition says on one or two points. They've noticed that I'm a citizen of Tanzania, and that's true. But so what? None of those things make me a spy.

[P0M:] What the groups in question may be trying to do is to admit to lesser "sins" (knowing that they are "legal") in order to create the impression that they are innocent of the more serious charges, i.e., create the impression that they would admit to the more serious charges if they were true.

[P0M:] Probably the whole question of religious groups that are viewed as non-cults and religious groups that are viewed as cults and that also tell people how to lead their lives should be put in a separate article. The important thing in this article is to make clear what brainwashing actually is, not what it is not, and not the details of less manipulative forms of influence and persuasion. P0M 22:11, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

So many words.... what do you propose? (Please note that this debate is contained to the "Brainwashing controversy in new religious movements". In this context the discussion about what brainwashing is not' is as important as what it is). --Zappaz 22:28, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[P0M:] Am I right to interpret your statement to mean you intend simply to ignore what I have written? P0M 23:10, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Not at all, not at all. Only that I could not get your point... Now I may have understood you better... we could move the whole text on that section to the Cults article and add a See Also wikilink to that article/section. Your call. --Zappaz 00:29, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
[P0M:] I've owed this article attention for a while now. I finally found my own copy of Lifton's book, so I can underline or highlight as I read rather than taking extensive notes in the library's copy. Every time I look at the article I find more things that seem shakey. Probably the "seems to be" and "are taken to be" things need to be moved away. (That'll be one way to keep the article down to the 32K limit, too.)
Zappaz, I propose re-inserting the paragraph that I wrote. For example, the Hare Krishna and my former group (Sathya Sai Baba) openly state that they want to purify the human mind by sadhana. It is not only my experience but I read it too. It is a fact that does not need attribution. I think it was dr. Reender Kranenborg who wrote it but I do not understand why I need to provide references for such well known facts. It is relevant because it may help to understand phenomena that some anti-cult activists call snapping [2] [3] Andries 22:38, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
If we are going to discuss what brainwashing is not -- with the aim of distinguishing it from things that resemble it fairly clearly, and so not involving us in pointing out that brainwashing is not the teaching and learning of multiplication tables, nasty though that practice is -- then I think the paragraph would be very useful. Being able to cite book and page would be very helpful in avoiding battles conducted in the midst of fog and smoke. What Kranenborg (or whoever it really was) wrote may seem like general knowledge to you, but even though I've been interested in brainwashing for nearly 50 years I know nothing about what you describe. So if it came down to a question of whether to credit the passage or not, then I would definitely want citations, and so would most non-experts. P0M 23:10, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Patrick, I will try but I need some time. I think that William James wrote that intense spiritual excercises may lead to an altered state of consciousness though that term may not have existed when he wrote the classic The varieties of religious experience. I have the book (which is also online available) but have not read it yet. I do not know how to prove the other obvious statement yet. Andries 02:13, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The James materials will be valuable. There is a great deal in Lifton's work about the differences in the ways people react to Chinese intense brainwashing. It's the "wishy-washy" ones who escaped. They "wishyed" over to the pro-PPC position and then "washeyed" back to the consentual reality of the West as soon as they got out from under information control. The "true believer" type, however, tends to switch from being an adamant "no arguments" Catholic (or whatever) to an adamant PPC believer. It's like a cube. You push it and push it and suddenly what was the bottom becomes a side, and there is no easy way to get it back into its original orientation. You have to push it just as hard to get it to go back as you did to get it to turn in the first place. The other type is more like pushing a bean bag. You push it on one side and the top part of it will move over but the bottom part stays about where it was to begin with, and when you let go it squishes back to about where it was when you started. I'll check out the URLs you added above. P0M 04:39, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Interesting quote fom Barker's book An introduction to NRMs

  • Chapter "8 Isolated from the world"
"It has become clear in the course of time that the definition of reality for most people - that includes questions like, what happens with me, with others and with the rest of society - and their judgement about what is good and evil, is very sensitive to suggestion, influence and manipulation if this happens when these people are cut off from other sources of information. If there is only one interpretation available and if in addition this interpretation is also accepted by other co-believers and if even a suspicion of doubt is explained as a shortage of faith or betrayal to the cause, then, it will be clear, that investigation of reality is not easy. "

Andries 02:30, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Andries, it will be helpful if you read some of the scholars that challenge brainwashing theories (see list of citacions above), rather than reading the same scholars again and again. That will have the potential to widen your perspective on this subject. --Zappaz 16:11, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The reason I use Barker as a reference so often is that she is both acceptable for you and me. I have read much more on the subjects but I have to admit that I often distrust much of what I read because there is so much partisan information with regards to cults and NRMs. I even borrowed Lifton's original book from the library only for this article though I only read some chapters. Andries 17:50, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The question is not whether brainwashing exists

There seems a lot of evidence for the existence of brainwashing given the fact that many people's opinion are resistant against evidence but the question is not whehter is exists but whether it is a suitable explanation following ockham's razor for this phenomenon. Andries 04:05, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Andries, with all due respect, please understand that you cannot take the most sensitive aspects of human endeavor such as feelings, beliefs, faith, etc. and utilize ockham's razor to explain these away. There is a 'huge' amount of scholarly research done on Brainwashing, mind control, influenece, propaganda, etc. Attempting to bypass all that research and attempt to find an explanation following ockham's razor, is laughable. Let's stick to finding good references, summarize them and provide citacions. Think of the reader! --Zappaz 16:07, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I do not mean to re-do the research here but what I meant is there seemed to be some good reasons to believe in brainwashing by cults that should be stated here. I mean, we should explain why this at a certain point of history this was thought to be a plausible explanation for what happened to members of purported cults. Some of them, like altered state of consciousness and what Barker wrote about the big influence of communal reinforcement and lack of information can and should be stated in the article. Andries 17:47, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
You need to look into the history of the anti-cult movement to understand the reasons for the attempt by them to apply theories of brainwashing to members of NRMs. It is all so evidently obvious! --Zappaz 19:58, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Stating that something is obvious to me does not provide grounds for other people to believe it. P0M 20:22, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
So "why the anti-cult movement tried to apply theories of brainwashing to members of NRMs", this is "evidently obvious". The notion that "mind control" is exactly the same theory as "brainwashing" only under a different name, this too is "evidently obvious". But oh, sorry, when it comes to anything the anti-cult movement might have to say in answer to accusations that they are a homogenous lump of pseudoscience-spouting bigots, I'm sorry, we can't read their minds on that like we did on those other two issues; it's going to need references before anything can be allowed in on that matter. -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:39, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Thank you Feldspar for the juicy peyorative: "homogenous lump of pseudoscience-spouting bigots". It may come handy in the future :). Happy New Year! --Zappaz 22:47, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I think that Andries has a good point. There is a large range of phenomena that get called "brainwashing." (Which presidential candidate admitted to being "brainwashed" after he repeated some CCP conclusions?) Even within the confines of Chinese practice, the brainwashing that was practiced in Korea was different from the more intense brainwashing applied within their national borders. Brainwashing developed out of Russian show trial "preparation" of prisoners, which in turn owed much to techniques used by the Catholic Church during the Inquisitions. Much of what I saw in my own Presbyterian Sunday School background used elements of coercive persuasion, and in between are the televangelists. P0M 20:22, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I fully agree. That is why we need to make clear distinctions in how the term has been applied to different situations and by different people, as well provide the necessary context for readers. After all, hope you agree that this is a "loaded" term: By utilizing the term "brainwashing" anti-cultists in the 70s and 80's attempted to ride the wave of the obviously negative connotations of the term, and use that as a weapon of misinformation and propaganda against the new religious movements they opposed. When scientist rejected the theories of brainwashing within the context of "cults" and NRMs, they simply changed the term to mind control. --Zappaz 22:14, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Zappaz, you are wrong, the mind control is different from brainwashing. Andries 13:55, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That is very gullible. Hassan and othre anti-cultists changed 'brainwashing' to 'mind control' and 'deprogramming' to 'exit counseling' as a way to diassociate themselves from the controversies that ended up as a huge discredit to anti-cultist. Mind control and brainwashing are both inventions without any scientific standing. It takes a few hours of rearrch, but eventually you get to the point in which you understand were all comes from. --Zappaz 16:30, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Zappaz, I think you overlooked the fact that many ex-members sincerely do not understand their own experiences and look for answers and they sometimes end up with simplistic theories such as mind control but to say that they were devised cynically to have strategy against cults, well, that may be unconcsiously part of the reason. I am happy to see that you are somewhat cynical and suspicious of the motives of people if you can apply this attitude to all players in the debate, not just to anti-cult movement but also to leaders of NRMs. The disappointment and the anger of so many once ardent followers, such me of so many NRMs indicates that there is sufficient reason to do so. Andries 17:29, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Zappaz, this is a general problem that I have with your edits in Wikipedia. You seem to welcome NRMs as an enrichment of cultural and religious diverdity but seems to forget or ignore the fact (and this is just a fact) that the lives of people have been ruined by NRMs. You only focus on the persecution and unjustified stigmatization they receive and to depict the people who criticize them as untrustwothy and hate mongers . In some cases there is believe me a good reason for this stigmatization of certain NRMs. Andries 18:58, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Emerging religions are indeed a societal phenomenon and part of the cultural diversity and development of societies. Your generalization "the lives of people have been ruined by NRMs" can coexist with the opposing statement that "the lives of people have been enriched by NRMs". My position, supported by years of study and corroborated by many scholars, is that the number of people who's life was "ruined" to use your term, is a tiny minority and that most people are either indifferent or enriched by their experience in NRMs. I agree with you that some NRMs are very destructive, but please note that the anti-cult movement and their proponents have a very distorted view of reality either due to their apostasy, their religious background (mostly evangelical christians), or their ideology and that they tend to crtitique any and all groups that are outside of mainstream religions. Most scholars that study NRMs concur with this. --Zappaz 20:22, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Indifferent because they were never deeply or long involved. Why do you always conveniently forget to mention that? Many people who wake up after long feel they have been harmed. Many people for whom it is just too difficult or too painful to see the evidence do not wake up for obvious reasons. At a certain moment when they are not so devoted then they may look at the evidence and then this may not be traumatic. But you have to understand that there are people, like me, on which the evidence was forced due to circumstances when they were superdevoted and supercommitted. Zappaz, I was fully aware that some people in the anti-cult movements made flimsy, crazy criticisms on NRMs even when I was a follower but that does not mean that ex-members/apostates cannot tell the truth. Why do you think so many post on ex-Jehovah forums. Don't you think that ex-followers feel cheated and angry, at least for some time? What apostates do is consumer protection for spiritual seekers. Andries 21:19, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
"consumer protection for spiritual seekers". That was a good one Andries!
I can understand how you feel, according to your situation. Just note that anyone devoting many years sincerily to anything and deciding later on that it was a mistake or that felt no longer willing, will have serious issues to deal with. Just ask anyone that went through a painful divorce! That does not mean that marriage is wrong. Just that some marriages do not work.
In any case, I wish you a happy new year and hope you can take meaningul steps in recovering from your traumatic experience. Best wishes! --Zappaz 21:43, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)


Zappaz, thanks for the best wishes and you too. But there is huge difference with marriage i.e. the relationship resembles a one to many relationship unlike marriage so that makes it meaningful to warn people not to make the same mistake. And there is another difference my former guru requested all devotion and love directed to him, and every act dedicated to him. Spouses do not go that far. Andries 21:55, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
My wife does! :) --Zappaz 21:59, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Zappaz, just a reminder that my former guru was India's most popular godman who lost many followers after 2000, so that indicates that the experience of harm by a cult is not a small minority, though I have to admit that the intensity of my experience is exceptional. Andries 11:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)