Talk:Brahmavihara

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Brahma-viharas fused with Brahmavihara. Article in need of a cleanup. --Gakuro 09:56, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Directing to oneself and what the Buddha *actually* said

I've reverted TonyMPNS addition of "The Buddha himself did not specify directing the apramanas towards oneself" because I found this text (for Mudita Meditation) saying "He should then break down the barriers by means of impartiality towards the four, that is, towards these three and himself". I do not have access to a copy of the Visuddhimagga, but if this translation is "correct", and if it says similarly for the other Brahma Viharas, then the note is uneccesary. See also similar discussion on Talk:Metta. I also do not think that what we read in the Pali Canon and in the other scriptures was what the Buddha actually said, but rather what was said, heard, remembered, recited, and eventually, after having gone through many generations of people, riciting to eachother, was written down, and copied many times, again by people with their own views and ideas of what might actually have happened (or even worse, with political agendas). What the Buddha said is almost certainly somehting like what is in the texts, but using them as word-by-word transcript of discourses is not something that I'd like to do. So, whether or not he said to direct the Metta, Karuna, Mudita, and Uppekha towards oneself or not will not be known, but some texts seems to point (at least partially) in that direction. I'd love to have access to Buddhaghosa's source material... --- Andkaha^(talk) 16:08, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

• Hallo Andkaha. Thanks for your comments. Having checked the Pali, I cannot see anywhere in the sutta (unless my eyesight has deceived me!) where the Buddha specifically gives the admonition that the person should direct metta towards himself. Now, having established that point, I think it is perfectly valid for me to have a note saying that the Buddha does not specifically enjoin (in the sutta) such practice upon the meditator. What Buddhaghosa says is another matter. That is Buddhaghosa and not the Buddha. The whole point that I am trying to make is that the Buddha himself (as distinct from possibly later tradition) is not recorded as teaching a particular mode of practice. Yes, you may well be right that the suttas do not contain the verbatim word of the Buddha (most scholars would surely agree with you), but I do think that one nevertheless needs to respect what they say and be accurate in one's representation of them. I am not saying that the Buddha definitely did not teach the direction of metta etc. towards oneself (we can never know that for sure) - but that the relevant sutta has not recorded such a teaching. That is all I am saying, and which I wish to point out in the article. You are looking more at the wider picture - of Buddhist tradition - whereas I want to raise this one (neglected) point of specifically (alleged) Buddhic utterance (as recorded in that sutta). So I would like to replace my point somewhere in the article. Of course I would be perfectly happy to put it in a less prominent and more elegant place than before! We do not,fundamentally, disagree, I think. We are just looking at the matter from different perspectives. All best wishes to you, Andkaha. From Tony. TonyMPNS 16:45, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I commited a change which mentions the source and age of the practice as described in the article. Would you be happy with this change Tony? In stead of saying "the Buddha did not say", I say "Buddhaghosa says", more or less. --- Andkaha^(talk) 18:28, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks, Andkaha, for your helpful change. That is definitely much better - more precise. Ideally, I would like to add somewhere, in brackets, something like: "(however, there seems to be no written record in the suttas of the Buddha's explicitly teaching any specifically self-directed "apramanas" "). You probably will hate that, right? What do you think? Should we just see what other editors feel about this matter? I am not sure why you are reluctant to have such a sentence as the above inserted into the article - but if other editors object to it too, then I shall observe Wiki democracy and not insert it! Shall we see if we get views from other editors in the next week or so, either way? I don't want to "dig my heels in" here. I'm just curious to see what other people's views might be. What do you think about this, Andkaha? Cheers. From Tony. TonyMPNS 19:20, 21 June 2006 (UTC)