Talk:Bondage (BDSM)

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[edit] TV shows: ReBoot reference

As a person who watched that series from its premiere to its completion, I can tell you that Megabyte and Hexadecimal were siblings (brother and sister respectively), the two halves of a more powerful virus. As such Megabyte was suave, calculating and cultured (the brains) while the unpredictable and unstable Hexademical personified chaos (the brawn). The siblings shared a strong rivalry and deep-rooted hatred for each other, and if Megabyte captured Hexadecimal it was usually to make use of the considerable power at her disposal. Comparisions to bondage are likely in the restraints used to ensure Hexadecimal didn't unleash her rage on her brother or his forces at a crucial moment (usually when the heroes arrived to save the day), and not for anything incestual. In short: They really shouldn't be here for the reasons given above, so could we please remove that reference? -- 74.12.132.119 03:40, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm a fan of ReBoot too, and I can understand what you mean. I changed it, although I'm a beginner at Wikipedia!

[edit] Statistics

"Studies in the U.S. have shown that about a half of all men find the idea of bondage to be erotic; many women do as well." - any actual stats for women? Crab

[edit] Japanese

Is anyone here kinky and speaks Japanese, who could confirm or correct the Japanese bondage entries here, and perhaps even add some Unicode for their original Japanese names?

[edit] Links

Added http://www.seriousbondage.com/ - this is a good non-commercial site. Please don't remove it. Dlloyd 09:31, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Serious bondage might be a good link, but not here, rather more appropriately placed on the BDSM page.

[edit] Is this relevant?

I've noticed this recent addition.

".... The basic style depends on the type of fantasy being played out, here a few examples: Rape Fantasy: The top fictitiously abducts the consenting bottom and has complete control to do what he/she pleases. Domination/Slavery: A training session occurs in which rewards for obediance and punishment for defiance are given. Humilation is usually involved. Predicament Bondage: The bottom is given a choice between two tortures. For example, caning on the rear or flogging on the chest. If the bottom cannot stand one any longer, the top will start the other. This can also be done mechanically, like having a bottom squat and rigging a crotch rope to tighten if they attempt to stand. ...."

To me it doesn't seem relevent as they describe other BSDM activites not neccisarily related to Bondage as an activity. It seems to me that someone has simply added thier own fantasies to the existing entry.

You are entirely correct, IMHO, this paragraph does not belong under bondage, and perhaps not under BDSM either. This is a dictionary to consult for information, not to go into specific scenarious.

[edit] NPOV

I'm tempted to call lack of NPOV of this article, mostly because in my experiences, bondage is not necessarily sexual. It easily can be, and is a fairly intimate act, like sex, so there is a strong sexual connotation in some cases, but it easily does not have to be sexual.

I've renamed the article, from "sexual bondage" to "bondage (BDSM)" to reflect this. Does that help? -- The Anome 08:45, May 11, 2005 (UTC)
That it does, thanks. Sdr 6 July 2005 18:40 (UTC)

[edit] History

Bondage must be older than this article claims. see works by Jacques-André Boiffard from the 1930s.

I find it a bit odd that those Ann Rice books are named as "early examples" of bondage; they're not very old at all!


A serious history of bondage requires in-depth presentation of some people who are surprisingly absent from the article. Three which readily come to mind:

  • Irving Klaw
  • John Willie (and the entire Sweet Gwendolyne series of stories)
  • Eric Stanton

"Effie Elisa Ross" is not a homo-erotic BDSM poet, her name was placed on this page originally as a prank. However, I have attempted to remove it many times, and my edit is ignored and the page is reverted back, despite the fact that I had just legitimately fixed a malicious edit.

erm, there are some really anchient japanese pics but as i couldnt find them again i havent added them here :(, and not sure about the context a they may have not been consensual and therefor just rape (i think bdsm implies consensual fun, for me anyway)

[edit] Fusion Bondage

The page Fusion Bondage was created, but there seems not to be much info on it. A Google search only returns 329 instances of the term. I propose that this subject might better exist as a part of the main Bondage article. Vslashg (talk) 07:51, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with the comment above... Fusion Bondage like Shibari is its own artistic branch of rope bondage. The link to Bondage (BDSM) provides clarity for readers looking for more information on the general subject of Bondage. However, that said, Bondage (BDSM) is written like a clinical treatise on the subject --- not an indebt objective artistic and sensual evolution of its elements. It lumps rope bondage into a general "catch all", a fact that limits objective evaluation of Fusion Bondage.

One issue is whether "Fusion Bondage" is notable enough to warrant a separate article, or whether it only really merits a brief mention in a more general article (such as this one). vslashg is presumably arguing the latter based on Google search hits, and the argument seems fair enough to me. Remember, Wikipedia is not a place to promote new ideas that haven't really attained any independent notability yet. — Matt Crypto 17:44, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
It seems a little nonsensical to me to require that Fusion Bondage be a chapter in the Bondage (BDSM) article, but have no reference at all to it in the Rope Bondage article, since it fits in both categories. M.S.K. 19:05, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] John Mellencamp song

I removed this paragraph

The popular song, "Hurts So Good", by John Mellencamp featured lyrics saying, "Come on baby make it hurt so good. Sometimes love don't feel like it should, so make it hurt so good."

since it seems to refer to S/M rather than bondage as such. Pretzelpaws 06:24, 4 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Pictures

I think that one picture should be of a man in bondage, especially because the article emphasises that many men fantasise about being tied up during sex. I don't have any - anyone who can help out?

I have one but I do not know how to put it on there. Starcomet 21:58 September 24, 2006 (UCT)

  • I agree, I found a free image of a man on Commons and added it to the article. Johntex\talk 19:42, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mess

Most of the songs, facts etc refer to BDSM not to bondage. Most facts related to BDSM are true for bondage too. This doesn't mean it also has to be the other way around as well. Therefore I believe only facts distiguishing bondage should be statet here... everything else should be put under BDSM. Subsidiarity --84.152.231.17 18:17, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this is true. I actually put many of the music ref's here, and then copied to BDSM. When I get a chance, or others do, your idea of trimming these to more bondage specific music links would be great. Atom 23:18, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Separate Article Required?

I think we need somebody in the know to write another separate article dealing with 'loving' bondage, rather than bondage used within Dom/Sadomasochism. There's a huge gulf between strapping a willing victim up for a good lashing, and tying your beloved up in silk to give her something to pull against and stop her wiggling out of the room while you are pleasuring her. My wife and me have played this way over the years, but we need someone like Taxwoman to write a proper page :-) 160.84.253.241 09:05, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Me again. In fact, after reading the 'Couples and Bondage' paragraph, and the 'BDSM' page, it strikes me the vast majority of people that play with bondage are probably in no way connected to BDSM at all, but are otherwise - "vanilla" couples who sometimes use mild forms of bondage as part of normal sex play as a 'sensation intensifier'. Why has this 'Bondage' page been hijacked by the BDSM community, when (I imagine) most bondage that will happen in the world tonight has absolutely nothing to do with Domination, Sadism, or Masochism?. 160.84.253.241 10:16, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad that you are learning more about our sub-culture. Actually BDSM has grown over the years to basically be a term that is used to cover the whole spectrum of what some would call "kinky" activity. Not all, in fact most BDSM'ers are not at the end of the spectrum, what one might call "heavy players". Many are couples whose children are older, or out of the house who are exploring their sexuality again, and try out a little light bondage or D/s play.

In response to your added comment, the bondage page is pretty accurate according to my view. I'm not sure what you mean that it has been hijacked by the BDSM community. Light bondage and spanking is part of the BDSM spectrum.

BTW, please don't use silk to tie up your sweatheart, as silk can be very hard to untie in an emergency. Atom 12:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. Sorry for using the word 'hijacked'...it's the wrong word. I suppose there are a million different views about where the border is between 'bondage within vanilla', and BDSM.
Personally I don't tie my beloved up to dominate her, but because she looks nice like that, and she finds working against the ties feels good when she can feel a mattress-ripper coming on :-). We have no interest at all in the 'DSM' part of 'BDSM', so maybe we just need to change our definition of 'vanilla' to include light bondage (I think that most 'vanilla' couples are a lot more adventurous than people think anyway, they just keep it between the two of them behind the closed bedroom door).
I won't be a pest by calling a vote or anything, I just want to canvass opinion. Am I the only one who thinks that bondage as used within relationships by more adventurous 'vanilla' couples, and bondage as used in its own right as part of BDSM culture are such different things that they merit two separate (but cross-referred) articles ???
160.84.253.241 16:31, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I have great sympathy with our anonymous friend, and am flattered that he thinks that I am the one to write a proper page. The trouble is that really, it's a multi-faceted continuum, not a simple either/or. Would the cabal who run Wikipedia really stand for having lots of separate articles called "Light bondage in vanilla sex", "Bondage without domination", "Stringent bondage without SM"? They'd soon be deleted or merged.--Taxwoman 20:32, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to our truly beautiful friend (we've seen the photos!). I see what you mean. There seems to be a 'raincoat brigade' who try to slant all 'sexuality' articles to extremes and personal agendas at the expense of the 'centre' (??). For example have you seen the meagre page for 'Vanilla Sex'?...'Er and Me consider ourselves 'Vanilla', but if our sex life was as mind-numbingly dull as described there, we would have jumped off Beachy Head together long before now :-) (e.g. see my wife's re-write of the article on 'Orgasm Control'). Many vanilla couples explore other things without ever becoming part of the relevant sub-culture, so in addition to vanilla bondage, we have over time also had a vanilla foursome without becoming swingers, and we must keep Duracell in profit with our vanilla use of various things that go buzz in the night, whilst still remaining 'vanilla'. I still feel that the article should simply be called 'Bondage (Sexual)' which starts with plain Bondage, but then derects you onwards to BDSM if you want to delve deeper, but I'll go with the flow. Perhaps we will attempt a re-write of the 'Couples and Bondage' section, which again seems very meagre given the percentage of the population that are probably 'at it'. (BTW I'm not being anonymous for any sinister reason, but my real user name is my actual name :-) L&BWs 160.84.253.241 08:33, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

One of the things that bothers me about this page is the first two photos. They depict bondage portrayed in pornography. So as I thought about it, it dawned on me that there is a great gulf between bondage done for pleasure and bondage that is portrayed in pornography. I personally like both, but there is a difference and this article does not distinguish the two. It also seems like this is what the "vanilla" vs more "extreme" group might be misinterpreting. I would like the two photos of the models removed. And, if anyone is interested, maybe something can be done to clarify the intent of the information in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Josephharper911 (talk • contribs) 18:27, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about cabals, but i do know that people around here get pretty impatient about articles without real sourcing. the problem with articles on this subject is getting good references to published material. If you want a wider range of articles, if you want a wider range of content, if you want a clearer distinction between different styles, start by getting sources. It's hard to document attitudes--what different people call routine sex -- or pornography -- varies in all sorts of directions. Don't try to reorient, don't try to subtract--try to add. It is much better having as small number of substantial articles than a larger number of poorly documented variations--people will always be trying to merge them. it doesn't matter what we call an article, what matters is the information. Get information, get literary and film examples, get sources As for illustrations, though WP isn't censored of course :), there is a resistance to using unnecessarily dramatic photographs. Bored-looking models seem more acceptable--and remember we can only use free content--it is not that easy finding ones that are of high quality and otherwise suitable. We can also use original drawings, if they are donated under a free license. If you know of a good image that shows things differently, make certain about the copyright, and add it. I'd advise you as for any other topic--if you have a different perspective, add it. It is difficult in this area to keep even the existing content--we've lost quite a number of articles. I can't say it enough times--the biggest contribution anyone can make to this topic is additional unquestionably reliable sources. (and need I mention that what you personally think or do is what we call Original Research, and this isn't the right wiki for it.) DGG (talk)

[edit] tousin

Could someone comment on the importance of the 3 books by Steven Toushin, just added to the article? DGG (talk) 05:19, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Incidence

For details compare BDSM#Incidence.--Nemissimo (talk) 19:21, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Folsom St. picture

I dont think its a suitable picture, because it doe not provide a clear illustration of the subject. its a general science from the fair, which could probably used to illustate an article on the fair. some bondage demos seem to be going on, but at WP resolution they are not distinct enough to be informative. I havent the least objection to individual pictures, if they are better than this in their encyclopedic quality. Unless someone can counter this argument, I'm going to remove the picture. DGG (talk) 06:54, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Same here...no objection to the pictures, but they are not representative. We need a few pictures of (for want of a better word) 'normal' bondage, as practiced by couples etc. Only a small minority of people who actually play 'tie me up games' are actually visible members of the bondage 'scene'. I'm afraid me and my partner have a few too many miles on the clock to upload any of ours, but surely somebody a bit more photogenic could donate some with face turned away / pixellated if necessary??? Perhaps someone a bit artistic could 'trace' a few ink drawings over some of their photos?. We need views of the most common scenarios i.e. Woman spreadeagled / 'Y'-shaped on bed receiving oral: woman trussed with man holding vibrator: man with arms cuffed to bed with wife role-playing 'Miss BossyBoots' etc, which is the sort of thing that most people in the real world actually get up to. Strapping Lass (talk) 08:06, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I cropped the image to make the bondage more evident. The image is important and relevant to the section it appears in: "BDSM subcultures". -Neitherday (talk) 16:57, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Bondage in cats

I don't believe that cat mating behaviour has anything to do with bondage in BDSM. The male cat's motive has nothing to do with the fetishism of bondage and is only motivated by his desire to prevent the female cat from leaving during mating. The act is more in line with rape than it is with BDSM. Neitherday (talk) 04:54, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

certainly--I'm removing the section-- i doubt it has to do with rape either, just maintaining the mating position, as do all species in various ways. This particular position is the way kittens are held, so I assume it is felt as appropriate affection either consciously or as a reflex. . Anyway, this isnt the place for it-- or the place to discuss it. DGG (talk) 04:49, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I didn't mean to suggest it was rape, just that rape would be a better comparison than BDSM bondage in terms of human behaviour. Anyway, thank you for removing the section :) Neitherday (talk) 05:56, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I adjust and append it below.

It is sad that any mention of any possibility of any connection at all between anything related to BSDM and anything in nature shall have no place in the encyclopedia.Jidanni (talk) 03:46, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bondage in nature?

Bondage might possibly have connections to phenomena observed in nature, e.g., cat mating:

The male grabs the female by the scruff. This is done to immobilize her while he mounts and to prevent her from running away as the mating process takes place. [1]

Cognate areas of the brain being involved or not will have to await a CAT Scan ☺.

The problem with your reference is that the linked article only talks about the behaviour, but never links it to BDSM bondage in humans. For this text to be included, you would need a reliable source that specifically makes the connection between feline mating behaviour and human BDSM bondage. Remember that "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources]". -Neitherday (talk) 15:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Mention that it is an open question awaiting an answer from qualified researchers. Jidanni (talk) 22:55, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I see no evidence that it's a question at all. Unless you can get some support from a reliable source, it does not belong in the article. DGG (talk) 23:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, just get rid of it. This is one of the few remaining Sexology Wikis that doesn't look as though it was written by dirty schoolboys. Try and keep it informative. Shift the cat rubbish to a page dealing with animal sexuality. Strapping Lass (talk) 07:01, 4 April 2008 (UTC)