Talk:Bloomery

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[edit] Early Iron - questions..

Dear Peterkingiron and other contributors to this entry

There is indeed a strong desire to see references for the earliest history of iron as described here! I am fully aware that this is a minefield of opinions rather than 'hard' facts, but I would argue that, as stated in the smelting bit, there is a very significant absence of evidence for early production (i.e. not artefacts, but production remains such as slag, furnaces etc.).

Therefore, rather blunt (my opinion..) observations such as Iron appears to have been smelted in the west as early as 3000 BC, but bronze smiths, not being familiar with iron, did not put it to use until much later., certainly not indicated by reliable evidence, should not be made.

The second statement: In the west, iron began to be used around 1200 BC, presumably as a replacement for bronze, which was becoming harder to come by due to shortages in copper and tin is even 'worse'. This idea was proposed (by Snodgrass) in the 1970's, and although an attractive idea, is certainly no longer the 'majority view', if not dismissed altogether. Whereas tin may have become somewhat scarcer, copper certainly did not, and the continued presence of bronze artefacts during the 'coming of the age of iron' clearly shows that this was not the (prime) reason for using iron. More likely, or at least a more important factor, may have been the improvement of (secondary) smithing techniques, leading to iron being preferred for more and more types of artefacts.

Anyway, can go on for hours, perhaps we can discuss more before changing the entry? As all things iron are so 'hotly' debated, I did not want to arrogantly change the text to reflect my opinions.. And as you indicate below, you thought the smelting bit could be placed here as well. Perhaps we could craft a text that discusses and reflects different possibilities? --x@x 14:20, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Since, as you say, there is a lot of controversy here, I think the first step would be to build a list of references--as much as possible, this should be papers available online, so that all editors can see the same source material. The edits I've performed have been based on references that I found and added to the reference list; if I've contradicted earlier contents, it's because the references I found supported the changes I was making. In at least one case, the researcher who wrote the paper I was using completely changed his stance on the Chinese iron smelting timeline based on more recent evidence. Since I had two papers by the same author on the same topic saying significantly different things, I changed the article to match the later paper.
Since you sound like you have a different set of opinions than the ones stated in the article, why don't you list those here, with references, and then we can find the particular references to support the view stated in the existing article. Anything we can't find a good reference to support we can toss out, and the rest we can combine into a more balanced discussion of the controversial sections. Does that sound like a good plan? scot 14:58, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I do not feel that I am sufficiently expert on prehistoric iron to make any contribution to this subject. My expertise relates to the early modern period, and to some extent Medieval and more Modern.
There is a problem with a number of the iron-related articles in that several including blast furnace contain discussions of prehistoric material. I would suggest that all this should be merged into a single article, perhaps The origins of iron smelting. In place of the sections removed from those articles should be a short (uncontroversial) statement with a cross-reference to the setailed article, using the 'main' template. Since this is a controversial topic, it is important that sources should be cited - either as footnotes or as further reading. This should not be limited to material immediately available on-line.
This is not the only area in the iron articles where there is an undesirable overlap, something that is liable to result in diffently articles making conflicting statements.

Peterkingiron 17:14, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear Scot and Peterkingiron, I agree with both your suggestions. As the early (pre-500 BC) history and technology is very certainly my specialty, I will try to set up a start for 'the origins of..'. In terms of references that can be checked online, there is a small problem though. All relevant literature on iron is not online, but I can provide references to the litterature where needed. Secondary problem there is that none of my colleagues agrees fully on anything re the early history of iron.. Anyway, let us work on this, publish and be corrected.. --x@x 00:41, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I have added detail to this article on the early modern period and references, but references are needed for the material on the prehistoric period.

There is also a section included in the smelting article, which would be better if it appeared here. This may express views that conflict with that here. Peterkingiron 09:33, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unreferenced

As noted above, the early paragraphs remain unreferenced. I have therefore reinstated that template. Peterkingiron 22:16, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

I'm stashing some reference links here for future work:

scot 03:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Need to merge in Sponge iron, that appears to be the same as a bloom, and produced by similar means. Mention also meteoric iron (high nickel content) which was the first type of iron to appear in archeological records.

  • Early use of iron in China. It was long though the Chinese started with blast furnaces and cast iron, decarburizing it to get steel and wrought iron, but new evidence suggests that the Chinese picked up bloomeries from the steppe nomads, and then later developed the blast furnace themselves.

scot 14:31, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

scot 04:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cross-reference

Some one possibly Dincher has added a cross-refernece to 'Early iron Smelting' in Smelting. That article has had some specific references added as 'References', but I do not think that is appropriate. Some time ago, there were a lot of articles covering similar ground and sometimes contradicting each other. This is highly undesirable. We should have a hierarchy of articles, so that a general one, such as Smelting refers to another giving more detail, which may in turn refer to another giving even more detail. I merged various sections in other articles to create History of Ferrous Metallurgy. If we have detailed articles referring to broader ones as the place for more detail, we are going to go back to the anarchic situation that I tried to sort out. It seems perfectly legitimate to me for a wide-ranging article not to cite its sources directly, provided these do appear in the specific one to which it refers. Comments please. Peterkingiron 13:35, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Late iron bloomerys

I have as a curiosa seen that even in 20th century they were still working bloomerys in parts of Africa. The process is wasteful but easy to work in small scale. If I find the reference again I will add it to the article. Seniorsag 14:53, 20 June 2007 (UTC)