Talk:Black sheep

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Interestingly, the UDP in Switzerland recently (Oct 2007) used the image of the black sheep to make their point about immigration controls. This is racist. If they had used a goat it would have been fine, because goats deserve it.


[edit] Merged from Talk:Black sheep (term)

On the word black sheep. How common are black sheep in flocks a few centuries ago? If they were rare then their wool would have been more highly prized! So in the nusery ryhme a black sheep is pointed out. Yes it ryhmes with baa baa, but it also might relate to black sheep being prized in certain cultures. So origonal black sheep may have ment something special and only latter did it come to have a derogatory meaning. Just as artificial is now seen as bad, it was at first seen as good - as a work of artifice - of craft - a creation that was good.

just a thought to think about 15:14, 9 March 2006 User:82.5.173.225

[edit] etymology

anything about black sheep's etymology?

It's called the same in spanish (oveja negra)

--euyyn 16:12, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] wrong picture

The picture is actually of a goat, not a sheep. 20:35, 22 November 2006 User:62.163.50.92

I agree - it's definitely a goat. I'm removing it 81.151.231.225 15:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Added new pic of blacksheep in a flock with white sheep 81.151.231.225 15:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology?

A clever person might want to add the meaning of the expression "black sheep" to this page, possibly with some sense of origin for the saying. --Feitclub 00:41, Dec 9, 2004 (UTC) Italic text

a black sheep is a sheep in black colour 07:47, 19 May 2006 User:202.63.121.7

[edit] Removal not justified

But I never fight with people who are convinced that they are right.

Just WHERE do you think I got the description? From a professional article discussing this phenomena in family therapy.... <sheesh>

  • The removed bit -
  • Black sheep (psychology), a psychology description of the member of a rigidly triangulated family <triangulation (psychology)> who holds the rest tightly together by being identified as the bad/sick/deviant one who causes all the family problems.
  • The rule enforcer in the family is charged with the job of controlling the black sheep from spilling the family secrets - which often involve incest or alcoholism.
  • In short, the black sheep, in psychology, IS an outsider, but only because he/she is a teller of truth.

I had added, surely there is already a topic page on this, but I can't find it. And I LEFT this elaborate description because this IS a valid recognized phenomena. I am currently collaborating on a book to be published by an established author on the Black Sheep in families.

I had not put in CITATIONS here because this is NOT the place for citations... And if someone could not be bothered googling "black sheep" family and triangulation, then there is no hope for Wikipedia. Ignorance rules. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by A Kiwi (talk • contribs) 10:57, 19 December 2006 (UTC).

Slow down, my friend. If you have all this information, why not create a topic? But, fair enough. I'm willing to call this a mea culpa. I've created a stub. Add to it as you desire. --Eyrian 11:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Photo displayed is a goat, not a black sheep

I am someone who has owned both goats and freshly sheared sheep, and this know that not only are sheep not "marked" with contrasting color patches of white, but they also have a very different body shape. Kiwi 23:01, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I say it looks like a goat too. IvoShandor 22:17, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Hey, Ivo .... THANKS for your support. I have owned and lived around both goats and sheep all my life.
I "know" that there are photos that are allowable -- but the woman who told me that, with such superiority, that you certainly could NOT find them on any Google search, subsequently refused to tell me where to find these "allowable photos". WikiPedia can be a weird clannish place at times. Kiwi 02:25, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
We can't use other people's copyrighted photos, is all. We're giving out Wikipedia for free. If you can find a picture which the photographer has clearly put in the public domain (or if you can take such a picture yourself), that'd be fine. --McGeddon 13:25, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Hey, I don't know how to check an image on Flickrs copyright status, but this is a really cool photo with a black sheep: [Black-Sheep] 216.9.17.110 (talk) 03:13, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Moves, merges, history

[edit] Black Sheep

[edit] Black sheep

[edit] Black Sheep (disambiguation)

[edit] Black sheep (term)


[edit] Procedure to tidy up

The above is the situation as at 10:00, 11 October 2007 (UTC). I then did this to reassemble edit histories after the cut-and-pastes:

Anthony Appleyard 11:34, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Note

In the history of Black sheep there is a gap between these two edits:

  • 17:39, 22 August 2005 Neilc (move content from Black Sheep)
  • 21:20, 3 March 2005 Angr (nothing to do with languages)

as between them this text was part of Black Sheep (disambiguation). Anthony Appleyard 11:51, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed (black sheep or scapegoat?)

I've removed this because it seems to be confused with the "scapegoat" role in the family:
"A black sheep is the member of a rigidly triangulated family, who holds the rest tightly together by being identified as the bad/sick/deviant one who causes all the family problems. In this situation, the rule enforcer in the family is charged with the job of controlling the black sheep from revealing the family secrets.[citation needed]"
The "black sheep" is a family dynamic - the one that "sticks out" from the others. I cannot write about it as it would be original research. Most children self-identify as the black sheep of the family because of feeling different. Not only because they are bad or sick. Of course it is assumed to be true, but it is really the behavior that makes them stick out, ie. drug addiction, grandiose behaviour, disobedience - not necessarily "sick" or "causes all the family problems". In fact, being the "black sheep" can be a postive if the family dynamic is reversed. Say, the family is disfuctional, but the one, the black sheep, is the one that sticks out because it has excelled, and is different from the "sick" family - something significant that makes them "stick out" from the others. Is there a citation for this? I can't find one, even though I know it to be true in a sense. It's another role in the family dynamics. Scapegoat, on the other hand does have much more resources to cite to, and is not the same as the black sheep of the family, but is often confused with it. Although one can be both the scapegoat and the black sheep of the family. There are no reliable sources though, that I can find anyway, that would justify this conclusion or the one that I've removed. → GeeAlice ♥ 20:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Removing it makes good sense to me, nice work. VanTucky talk 02:42, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] First project for Wikipedia

As of April 2, 2008, edited this page as first project. Any comments appreciated. Did the following:

  1. Added link to Wiktionary. Floated TOC and picture.
  2. From previous posts, learned that page direction was for terminology, not necessarily biology. But added more succinct genetic information citation to definition, making the body of the text heavier. Added short biology section because of this.
  3. Found more usage of the term "black sheep." Depending on the group culture using the phrase, it was either positive or negative, so further clarified usage by splitting the term into two groupings with citations and examples for each. I know Baa Baa Black Sheep was removed once. However, it is an example of the use of the term. The other examples should be obvious. If not how do I clarify.
  4. Did not find a standard template for citation on this page. Would anyone let me know what the standard for this page is and how it was chosen, and I will go back and change. Thanks. FV2WRLD (talk) 07:34, 2 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Black sheep with white wool

What about those? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.122.63.142 (talk) 18:45, 8 April 2008 (UTC)