Category talk:Black rock musicians

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Contents 1 "African American" or "Black"? 1.1 MOVED 2 Black rock musicians 3 Subcategory

[edit] "African American" or "Black"?

Nice new category (Category:African American rock musicians), but I was wondering can we change the name and use black instead of African American because some of the artist you said aren't from Africa and denoting all black people African-American is not really true, and a lot don't like it.--Migospia†♥ 23:33, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

But some of them do. I've heard both sides of the argument, and neither one is better than the other. A friend of mine told me he prefers to call himself "African-American" as a cultural identification, as opposed to being called "Black" as a racial identification. He would disagree with your assertion that all black people are not from Africa (his parents are from Haiti), since all blacks do have ancestors from Africa. On the other hand, I would prefer the term "Black" for probably the same reasons as you, since it covers all possible coutries of origin, and "African-American" implies a person or his immediate ancestors are from Africa. So I guess I'm neutral on what title to use — either one seems appropriate to me. If Black/A-A people as a group can't decide on a single "best" identifier for themselves, what can we do? It's apparent that whichever we choose, we can't please everyone. Are there any WP guidelines on this kind of thing? — Loadmaster 16:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

On the other other hand, I intended this category to include black (as in "non-white") rock performers, because they are something of a rarity and thus deserving of their own subcategory. I specifically had in mind Chuck Berry, Ray Charles, Jimi Hendrix, Living Colour, and Lenny Kravitz when I conceived the idea of this category. Renaming would also expand the category to include non-American performers as well. So, yeah, perhaps a renaming is in order. — Loadmaster 17:01, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Since "African American" is not inclusive of black European musicians (or, indeed, those of any other continet) and being called "African American" boils the blood every European black person I've ever met (my wife included), but on the other hand some African Americans do - quite legitimately - object to being classed under the title "black," it might be better to have more than one category. Let this category stand and then use the European terminology for the other one, that is to say "List of Black or Minority Ethnic rock muscians" where one could place non American artists. A1octopus 18:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I commend everyone for trying to be considerate and sensitive, but it seems to me that the question: "Which term would be least offensive?" is the wrong question. Shouldn't we be asking ourselves: "Which term is the most encyclopedic?" To that end, I would argue that "Black" (with a capital B) is the ideal solution here. "African-American" excludes Blacks that do not have roots or citizenship in the Americas, and I'm of the opinion non-Americans should be included in this category lest it be too fractional. "Black or Minority Ethnic", on the other hand, I would argue is too inclusive, because that would fold in artists like Carlos Santana, who IMHO is properly categorized under either "Hispanic rock musicians" or "Latino rock musicians" (but that's a whole other debate). "_____ of color" and the like are not yet universally accepted expressions. That leaves "Black", and so what if that's a racial or ethnic identification? Like it or not, everyone on the planet undeniably has some sort of racial or ethnic identification. However, does that mean it's appropriate to categorize people by race or ethnicity? WP precedent says yes -- just look at the category list. Groupthink 22:50, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's a better way to say the point that I was trying to get across. I intended this category to include only Black rock artists, that is to say only those who are Black and only those who are rock musicians. I admit that "African American" is too exclusive, by nationality. But by the same token, "rock musician" should exclude non-rock performers, i.e., it should not include R&B, blues, rap, or any other non-rock (but possibly rock-like) genres. Otherwise the category would just be a meaningless duplication. So, again, I think a rename is in order, perhaps after waiting another day or so. — Loadmaster 02:18, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

"'Rock musician' should exclude non-rock performers, i.e., it should not include R&B, blues, rap, or any other non-rock (but possibly rock-like) genres." Wait a sec, that's a whole other megilla. Rock is an amalgam of numerous other musical genres, so I'd say it's fruitless to try to delineate "pure" rock musicians. There's a number of artists in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame that could also be categorized as artists in other genres: Sam Cooke (soul), Aretha Franklin (Soul/R&B), Bob Dylan (folk), Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five (rap), and Miles Davis (jazz) to name a few. Now I'm not saying that Miles Davis should be considered a "Black rock musician", but certainly Sam Cooke qualifies, and Aretha Franklin should probably get that tag too. As a rough guideline, I would argue that Black artists whose work is commonly found in the airplay rotation of Rock-genre radio stations should be categorized under "Black rock musicians". Groupthink 02:53, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

While "rock" is a fairly broad term, adding every Black musician to this category defeats the purpose of calling it Black rock musicians. Such an all-inclusive category would be better called Category:Black musicians or Category:African American rock musicians. I intended this category to include the fairly rare individuals who are Black and who perform rock music (e.g., Chuck Berry, Jimi Hendrix). I was willing to include people like Ray Charles because he has a particularly wide repertoire of styles, including rock, although I could be convinced that including him is being too inclusive. I don't want "rock musicians" to include hip-hop, rap, folk, disco, or other almost-but-not-quite-rock styles, otherwise the category would get too large. Primarily it boils down to a judgement call about whether a given artist's style qualifies as "rock" (pure or otherwise) or not. — Loadmaster 15:36, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

So it seems everyone is for calling this article, Black rock musicians? And yes only catagorize real rock or subcatorgies in rock bands and artist, and that is determined by the genres there Wiki artilce, says or website or myspace, etc.--Migospia†♥ 03:36, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, move to [[Category:Black rock musicians]]. Groupthink 04:29, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed move as per above. A1octopus 12:42, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MOVED

Okay, since the consensus is unanimously "rename", I'll rename this from "African American rock musicians" to "Black rock musicians". — Loadmaster 15:38, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Hoo boy. Since there is no "Move" tab for Category pages, this could be tiresome. I created Category:Black rock musicians (which, surprisingly, already had two entries in it), so now comes the tedious part of changing all the old Category:African American rock musicians links to the new one. Feel free to help, and to add artists who otherwise had been omitted previously. — Loadmaster 15:51, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, Migospia and I did most of the heavy lifting to change the category tags in the 50 or so existing articles. So now comes the part about deleting the old category page. I notice that it's redirected to the category, but isn't there a more proper way to delete a category? — Loadmaster 16:49, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I would just leave the old cat page as a subcat of the new page. Redirects in cat pages are a BAD THING, since they create double-redirects on the page they link to. Groupthink 16:54, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I think if we can get an admin to delete or officially redirect it would be better--Migospia†♥ 16:58, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I tagged the page with {{db-catempty}}. — Loadmaster 17:18, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Black rock musicians

I am just curious, Saul Hudson (Slash) from Guns 'n' Roses is half black. Will you be adding him to this category?

Thank you.

Mamasita516 16:44, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Subcategory

This category is subset (by genre) of Category:African American musicians. But it's also a superset (by ethnicity) of it. So should it be listed as a subcat of it, or more simply as a "See also" link? — Loadmaster 21:25, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

As it stands now, this catagory is a subcat of Category:Rock musicians, and lists Category:African American musicians under "See also". — Loadmaster 15:46, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

If Donna Summer is in there, why in heck has no one added Joan Armatrading?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.220.237.198 (talk) 08:16, 16 May 2008 (UTC)