Talk:Birmingham derby
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This game is always called the Second City Derby it even says it is in the article so why is the page called Birmingham Derby? Birmingham is one of the teams that plays in it its like calling Liverpool v Everton the Liverpool Derby. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.123.170.128 (talk) 19:41, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Crossing the Divide
CHRIS Sutton yes he played for Birmingham but he was released before signing for Aston Villa. He was Ex- Birmingham and it would have counted however he did not move directly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.104.51.181 (talk) 11:36, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Please can someone with some good reference material expand this section. There are many more than 2 players who have played for both clubs, including some famous names (the section does not say transfered directly from one to the other, just that they've played for both).
Harry Hampton was one, transfered from Villa to Blues in 1920.
And Bruce Rioch is another.
Dennis Mortimer also played for Birmingham City in the late 1980s, and Tony Morley had a loan spell there.
And Peter Withe played for Birmingham both before and after his time at Villa.
Significantly, the statement that Liam Ridgewell was the last player to play for both sides since Des Bremner in 1984 is completely incorrect! 81.96.161.52 18:17, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
- Read this page Ridgewell was the last to move! Also this page is being worked on and when I and others have time we will try to get this article up to GA standard if you have info please add it as long as you have ref's Everlast1910 01:24, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry, my comment on Ridgewell was mis-worded. I meant to say that he was not the "first" to move since Des Bremner - I believe there were others in between, although I am now struggling to name one who went directly from Villa to Birmingham. But I accept that he is the most recent. Perhaps it is after all more significant to talk about actual transfers between the two clubs than players who have merely played for both at come point. (There are a lot of player moves between the West Midlands clubs generally.)
- I could possibly get some info together on the matter, but would rather leave it to someone who has more complete data to hand. Otherwise, I'd be doing a piecemeal job which might end up simply confusing matters. MegdalePlace 05:20, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
- I've reworded the Crossing the divide prose. There must be 70 or 80 players who've played for both, so I'd suggest any lists be confined to first-team players who moved directly from one club to the other, although there'll still be quite a few. It's not like Arsenal/Spurs where there was genuine hostility between the clubs and a consequent reluctance to allow players to move to the other. Will look for reliable source for the Ellis dates. Struway2 | Talk 08:21, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
- I could possibly get some info together on the matter, but would rather leave it to someone who has more complete data to hand. Otherwise, I'd be doing a piecemeal job which might end up simply confusing matters. MegdalePlace 05:20, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
- Good stuff. I've re-worded the last sentence as it no longer followed gramatically - and since Doug Ellis is mentioned I also noted Ron Saunders' move. MegdalePlace 09:49, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry, my comment on Ridgewell was mis-worded. I meant to say that he was not the "first" to move since Des Bremner - I believe there were others in between, although I am now struggling to name one who went directly from Villa to Birmingham. But I accept that he is the most recent. Perhaps it is after all more significant to talk about actual transfers between the two clubs than players who have merely played for both at come point. (There are a lot of player moves between the West Midlands clubs generally.)
[edit] Change of order
I have moved "notable matches" above "premiership" matches in the main layout, because it is more logical that way, chronologically. Also, the text flows better in my view. MegdalePlace (talk) 12:01, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Match stats
A couple of comments on the table of clashes between the clubs:
1. The text above it includes: "since the first league meeting in 1879". The league wasn't in existence then, which raises question marks over which games are actually included in the tallies. Was 1879 a cup game? If so, was it in fact the Birmingham Senior Cup, and if so, should it be tallied in at all? Or was it just a notable friendly? or is the date just wrong? Their first league meeting was presumably 1894 when Birmingham were promoted to Div 1 for the first time.
2. The text says "there have been 122 competitive first–class meetings", but the stats include fewer than this. (Is it because clashes in other competitions are counted too, or is it just inaccurate?)
I would like to suggest that someone with access to the stats re-does the table so that league games are further divided between "football league (1888-1992)" and "premier league (1992-date)". The reason is that I think this will make the stats easier to keep accurate and current. It's a big job to keep re-checking the tally every time it's updated or each time they play, and who can say with certainty if it's ever truly correct? At least this way, the first period is 'closed' and we need only worry about the last few seasons.
Alternatively, which might be better still, how about dividing into 19th, 20th and 21st centuries? The grand totals will still be there, but it will be easier to maintain accurately.
3. Any stats available on war time games? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.96.164.105 (talk) 07:17, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
--Further to the above, I have looked at the Birmingham Senior Cup page on Wiki, and see that the two clubs have contested the final 3 times (1905-6; 1982-3; 1995-6). Birmingham won 2 of them. Should this and other data relating to the competition be added in either as part of the stats, or a separate section? (Are there any stats available, other than from these finals?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.96.164.105 (talk) 07:31, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
