Talk:Bipolar disorder/Archive 1

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Archive 1
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Contents

Diagnosis

Changed paragraph one: Two episodes of mania are NOT needed according to DSMIV. Only one episode of mania and 0,1 or many episodes of depression. Article should be accurate.

Further Readings

I moved some entries from bipolar children to here. I will clean up the links in a few days, or someone else can. but i need the practice. right now they are in improper form, are not hyperlinks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Johno95 (talk • contribs) 05:06, 25 December 2006 (UTC).

Deleted

Removed the paragraph: "There are many conflicting theories, and there is too much bias towards the medical model because there are reputations at stake, as well as big business interests. There is no doubt that so called bipolar disorder is a serious problem for those who suffer from it, but it is a problem that stems from character and one's personal philosophy. If the problem isn't faced honestly and straighforwardly early on, it will develop into what appears like a biological illness. But there is no blood test or brain scan that expresses distinctly that this disorder exists. Unfortunately the psychiatric profession has its own needs and desires, yet calls it scientific and medical." Not NPOV and not cited.

I just removed the sentence: "Persons suffering from the disorder are considered to be disabled." from the first paragraph. Considered by who? Their doctors? psychologists? the government? themselves? And suffering from what form of the disorder, and in what severity? Seems to require a massive amount of clarification, and some sort of citation. As it stood, it was extremely broad and misleading. --Jasonisme 18:19, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


This was in poor formate so I delted it:--Unopeneddoor 22:23, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


Bipolar disorder is a nutritional deficiency. Take a look at these medical journal articles:

  1. ABC news story transcript http://www.lorenbennett.org/nabcpig.htm
  2. Belmaker RH, Shapiro J, Vainer E, Nemanov L, Ebstein RP, Agam G. Reduced inositol content in lymphocyte-derived cell lines from bipolar patients. Bipolar Disord. 2002 Feb; 4(1): 67-9.
  3. Bourre JM. Dietary omega-3 Fatty acids and psychiatry: mood, behaviour, stress, depression, dementia and aging. J Nutr Health Aging. 2005; 9(1): 31-8.
  4. Chengappa KN, Levine J, Gershon S, et al. Inositol as an add-on treatment for bipolar depression. Bipolar Disord. 2000 Mar; 2(1): 47-55.
  5. Colin A, Reggers J, Castronovo V, Ansseau M. [Lipids, depression and suicide] Encephale. 2003 Jan-Feb; 29(1): 49-58.
  6. Kaplan BJ, Simpson JS, Ferre RC, Gorman CP, McMullen DM, Crawford SG. Effective mood stabilization with a chelated mineral supplement: an open-label trial in bipolar disorder. J Clin Psychiatry. 2001 Dec; 62(12): 936-44.
  7. Kidd PM. Bipolar disorder and cell membrane dysfunction. Progress toward integrative management. Altern Med Rev. 2004 Jun; 9(2): 107-35.
  8. Noaghiul S, Hibbeln JR. Cross-national comparisons of seafood consumption and rates of bipolar disorders. Am J Psychiatry. 2003 Dec; 160(12): 2222-7


I would like to add the following 3rd Personal Experience, my own, with Bipolar Disorder. It is too long to add to the article page

I had taken prozac for one year, after being diagnosed with depression. I stopped taking it after that year for two and a half years before I was diagnosed with BP I. Ironically, I had my first and only BP I level manic episode, lasting a week, about a year after I got married, and while the first of two children was on the way as my wife was pregnant. As this wikipedia article mentions on this page, major live achievements can trigger a BP's first manic swing, and that was apparently the case for me. I had gone through at least a half dozen corporate layoffs after I graduated from college in 1985 with a degree in business, and I think they got to me successfully, producing the kindling affect of straw on the camel's back stressful events, combined with genes.

If you could bottle extreme mania, you could make a fortune. It would sell for, I'd say, $10,000 a bottle, marketed to the wealthy - that is, if there were no ensuing depression afterwards. I would never want to go on "Mr. Toad's Wild Ride" (severe mania) again because the cost (of months of depression) is not worth a week in mental paradise. It is an experience that is really not possible to accurately describe, one that you'd have to experience to know. I felt as if I had made it to some enlightenment level, or made it to a heaven on earth state. Of course I could not concentrate on work. I was hyperactive - to the point of running upstairs in a hurry to complete some writing I was obsessed/crazed about. My thoughts as I wrote came with an elizabethan english accent, although I'm a born and raised American and I've never spent a day in England. And at the same time a full symphony (a new one my mind was creating on the fly) was playing in my mind, while I only played the trumpet for a few years in high school which is the extent of my musical experience. I felt as if I had made it to the same level as Jesus was on when he lived. I thought I could make a lot of money with my mind operating at that "RPM." I felt connected to God, and to the universe. And it seemed as if I were a puppet of God's at times, strings attached, and that God had his God, and God's God had his God, etc, in a grand puppet linkage. My bizarre writings may have been forecasting september 11, in abstract rather than detailed form, such that I didn't know what I was saying, in retrospect. I felt I was at some points telepathically communicating with some souls or persons or beings at a certain direction in space, in the direction of north, and I did not know what that meant, either a planet or heaven, although it felt as if they were warning me (again possibly of the impending disaster of 9/11 I don't know.) My wife reported the best sex she's had with me when I was severely manic that week. I would guess the neurons are firing very rapidly during extreme mania, while depression would be the other way around - not firing fast enough. (?) And creativity certainly is a hallmark of mania, the more extreme the mania, the more extreme the creativity. I believe there is some obsessiveness built in to the need for creativity as well, again along the same intensity of the intensity of the mania. I remember writing such musings as, something along the lines of, "God is lonely, sitting in a chair, in a hall of mirrors" - he is pulling our strings, but we don't always follow. That sort of thing. With the God's God, and God's God's God, thing again, with the strings attached to us humans on earth. Weird stuff like that. And the "play" I was writing was either entitled, or had the words in it, "If the Devil is a Friend of God," - which was done in jest/humor, and with the english accent I mentioned. Again I think in retrospect this might have been alluding to Osama Bin Laden pre-9/11 but I really can't say for sure. It does seem as if you are writing things of a prophetic nature though because they are abstract and you have no idea really where the ideas are coming from nor do you know what they mean.

What goes up must come down, the ensuing depression phase after this week in heaven was really heavy - I just wanted to lay in bed, and I was so bad with the depression or mixed state that my wife had to drive me to the psychiatrist, as I was incapable of driving due to not being able to focus my mind enough to be able to drive, who I finally agreed to visit once the mania had ended and the "hangover" phase of the depression was making it evident I was in deep trouble. I put on the entrance form to the psychiatrists office that I thought I must have come down with schizophrenia, for one thing I didn't know what bipolar was. I was prescribed an antipsychotic, an anti depressant, and a mood stabilizer. Over time I got better. At first I could only work in my self employment 2 hours a day. I gradually quit the anti psychotic and the mood stabilizer with the OK of my psychiatrist, as I am not a fan of medications. I could not quit the anti depressant although I tried several times, I'd always feel rotten/depressed a few days after trying to quit. I later found out there is a withdrawal symptom ("ssri discontination syndrome") for SSRI's that lasts a month, with the withdrawal symptoms being the same as depression symptoms (making it difficult to quit unless you know about SSRI discontinuation syndrome.)

Just prior to the manic episode, I experienced auditory hallucinations upon waking up in the morning, of leprechauns / elves / gnomes / fairies - they would run out of the house when they noticed I was waking up, laughing and what not on the way out. The experience is so real to the brain, that for months afterwards, I had some fear of statues/ornaments of gnomes/leprechauns/fairies/elves .

I experience motion sickness easily now while I did not prior to aquiring bipolar.

Things got better, I could not afford my HMO $400 a month bill, so I ran out of medication (SSRI.) I did fine for a year. But now that I have re-entered college for graduate level work, I am experiencing some mental problems - cognition and memory and "brain fog" and headaches. So I am going to start taking meds again, probably both the mood stabilizer and the anti depressant, as I have more stress in my life now. I am hoping I can function just fine with a job as my self employment income is going downhill over time. I would like to try Effexor as the SSRI as it works on two brain chemicals rather than just one, and it would be interesting to try Wellbutrin as it works on a third brain chemical. I have only tried SSRI's that work on serotonin only. And I think I should fully accept my life long illness and get back on a mood stabilizer whether I think I need it or not (they can cause sleepiness.)

I do not get hardly any episodes any more. I mostly have a light level of depression. But stressful events / lack of sleep can trigger hypomania.

The movie that struck me as depicting bipolar disorder I is: "The Messenger" - a movie from 2000 or so that is about Joan of Arc. The character of Joan seems like a perfect description for a BP I in that movie.

A sign of hypomania for me (which is so light it is hard to tell you have the hypomania) is when I purchase things I would not normally indulge in spending money on - nothing large - small things. The difference between hypomania (BP II level) (which you can't really tell you have until some reflection afterwards or a few days into the episode) and major mania (BP I level) is something like a 3.0 on the Richter earthquake scale for hypomania, compared to 9.0 or greater for BP I level extreme mania. There is no psychosis with BP II level mood swings.

I am taking some mood stabilizer medication again now, along with an SSRI anti depressant, both leftover medications, the SSRI my wife's, the mood stabilizer mine from 6 years ago (the pdoc said they last a very long time and he is apparently correct.) So for me the big thing now is to fully accept the fact I still have BP, and that I need to take both medications, the mood stabilizer and the anti depressant, because I can tell my mind is working just fine (no brain fog/memory problems) now that I am taking both medications again. And soon I'll be able to afford to enroll in the HMO plan again and get meds. The health care situation in America is not very amenable to persons with a mental health problem, since their problem may prevent them from getting a job that has the benefits to cover their medication costs.

The book "Rabbi Jesus" is a historical account of Jesus, rather than a faith based account, and in the book the author hypothesizes that Jesus had bipolar disorder. (If so he must have been highly manic much of the time, perhaps taking those walks into the hills during the down periods.)

Based on my own experiences, I would guess that the super famous and creative individuals in history that are hypothesized to have had bipolar (there was no diagnosis of bipolar back then), would have created their famous works during extreme manic episodes, not during mere hypomanias. Therefore I disagree with what is hypothesized on the article page, which guesses the other way around, that hypomanic episodes would have created the great creativity. IMO, the higher the mania, the higher the creativity. And the more intense the ensuing crash into depression, which would explain why so many of them killed themselves.



Additionional info: (BP 1) I am a 21 year old college student who had been misdiagnosed and is suffering from bipolar disorder since the age of 15. I do not remember my very first manic experience but I remember my first deep dark suicidal depression and I only say suicide because I know many of you have had similar experiences with depression. I know different meds work for different people but when I first saw a psychiatrist I was placed on anti-depressants( prozac, zoloft, lexapro, effexor). Huge mistake for those of us suffering from BP1. Rapid cycling and intense mania is all you have to look forward to. Don't be like this jackass above and believe that your disease is controllable for one minute. Without treatment the only future you have to look forward to is mental instituions, lonliness, and eventually an untimely death. BP causes more suicides than any other mental affliction. On the other hand, I know the power and the invincibility that one obtains through mania and although at the time taking medicine is the last thing on your mind, it must be done. Mania causes damage to loved ones but mainly it can ruin your life. One impulsive act in the form of rage, which I personally experience, will land you in jail. I know what your thinking, temporary insanity, stop! As an aspiring lawyer the only leniancy one receives is to be placed under psychiatric supervision until deamed fit to return to society( permeanence is a strong possibility). I have not written this to talk about my symptoms, but only to inform those of you interested in learning about how devestating this disease can be to your life. Mostly, I have written this to beg you to remain under treatment. Not for yourself, but for all those who have lost their lives to BP and for all their families whose lives have been shattered; which if your disease is not taken seriously you too will be a statistic (not being morbid...only realistic). Good luck to all of those who read this. medications taken which have given relief, if only temporarily.....seroquel,lithium,geodone(oral and injectable),trazadone,respiridol,amatriptyline,niravam,xanax,clonazepam,clonodine,topamax,thorazine,depacote,cojentin and lamictal

P.S. Self medicating only cause more cycles

Vandalism

I came this article looking for information on bipolar disorder. Instead, I come across complete & utter garbage. It appears that this article has been vandalized, as witnessed by the first paragraph: "Bipolar disorder, often referred to colloquially as manic depression, is another diagnosis that Ed Goodfriend happens to have." This is just another prime example of why Wikipedia is one of the most dangerous websites for mis-information. Cairnben (Talk)

Ocassionally vandals strike at random articles, but vandalism is usually reverted quickly. I just did so myself in this case. Anarchist42 19:20, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Marijuana

I agree, People on here who are under the belief THC (marijuana) is helping them are for the most part idiots ,ignorant, or only suffer from Bi-Polar type 2. They must smoke pot so much that they believe the government is after them; and are coming up with many false ideas about drug treatment. I have suffered severe Bi-polar type 1 and almost slip into psychosis immiediatly when I'm manic(acute mania). Ive smoked pot intenstly before onset of the disorder and after but have stopped. Marijuana will only cause 'short term' relief but in turn cause your illness to become worse as any psychoactive drug(including alcohol) will. So in the long run youre really doing yourself in, cause you think you are treating your symptoms but youre only making yourself cycles happen more often and have your episode more severe. Of course I hate Lithium and anyother anti-psychotic drug they stick me on, but im not going to be an idiot and make my illness worse. Just cause Marijuana is natural doesn't mean its safe...is cocaine safe? Nope. In conclusion, if you have Bi-polar type 2(which is really not that severe except the depressive episodes), or misdiagnosed Bi-polar(which happens more than you think) perhaps Marijuana is working for you. Do understand that 'these' same people who think Marijuana should be a legal mood stabalizer would be saying Lithium is the best mood stabalizer if it got them 'high'.

I don't who the above anonymous AOL contributor is, but throwing around insults such as 'idiots' is not a convincing argument, although it does demonstrate the uninformed bias faced by mentally ill medical merijuana users. One person's anecdote means nothing, especially when that person also had negative experiences with Lithium. Anarchist42 20:06, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

The first anon comment above is pretty ridicoulous. It is POV and seemingly based on personal anecdotal evidence.I find the comment about BPII not being serious espicially telling. 68.66.108.121 10:32, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I've seen first hand how Marijauna becomes a phsycological addiction with people with Bi-Polar. Personally, I've never done marijauna because frankly I'm already on so much medication the last thing I need is another drug messing with things. But I've seen my cousin who also is Bi-Polar go down a very rocky road and I wouldn't recomend it. And please no attacks against me because I'm anti marijauna in this case with stuff like "well you don't have this and that...". Trust me, with tourettes, clinical depression, Bi-Polar I, generalized anxiety disorder, OCD, ADHD and dyslexia I think I can say I've earned my stripes. Kisshapedbullet 05:39, 5 October 2006 (UTC)


OK, that part about marijuana 'helping' manic disorder is extremely biased and pov. in most cases, it has been known to worsen the condition of the user if he is currently suffering from bipolar.

No, the part about marijuana having no benefits is extremely biased and POV. The pharmaceutical lobby has spent billions to keep it off the market because it grows anywhere and can't be patented. Heaven forbid that people can medicate themselves instead of paying an exhorbitant price for prescription anti-depressants of dubious quality. In my case, as well as the case of several acquaintances of mine, marijuana is very effective at relieving mood swings. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of regular users of MMJ are self-medicating for bipolar or depression.

My experience with prescription anti-depressants has been very disappointing. They all (lithium, trazadone, Paxil) seem to feel the same: they wipe out my libido, turn me into a zombie, give me bad stomach cramps, and, worst of all, drastically alter my sleep patterns to the point that I have to stop taking them after a couple of weeks. MMJ is much easier on my system; it works within minutes instead of weeks, and doesn't have the 'zombiefication' effect of prescription drugs.

To reiterate, I am absolutely sick and tired of having Squibb, Johnson & Johnson, et al. dictate to me what I can take to alleviate my bipolar disorder. These companies are very unscrupulous and have no qualms against turning the United States into a police state (highest incarceration rate in the world) to maintain their death grip on the anti-depressant market.

  • The adds that have changed the "Marijuana" section to the "Medical Marijuana" section are very POV, if there isn't any good backing for it, I think that it should be deleted or reverted at least. NorseOdin 12:43, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
  • The evidence that you provide seems to be convincing enough for me, if you can get a couple of sources behind it then I have no problem with it being in the article. NorseOdin 14:33, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

--Seems very reasonable. I'm going to do a quick search on Google and see what I can find. There's plenty of studies like the Shaeffer Commission report in the early 70s and others that show marijuana to be relatively harmless. As for studies to the efficacy of MMJ at treating bipolar, that's much more iffy because of the almost non-existence of serious MMJ research in this country due to the War on Drugs. Something else to consider: if the self-medicated use of MMJ by a manic-depressive person is effective, that person probably isn't going to fall under the purview of the psychiatric sector. Also, any doctor who recommends MMJ to a bipolar person is in danger of harassment by the DEA.

-- With regard to studies on marijuana useage, especially long term usage, the article at http://www.guardian.co.uk/drugs/Story/0,,1713042,00.html mentions a much more recent study which shows long term usage actually causes some mental illnesses. I agree, it is discussing a person who suffers from Aspergers, but one of the key findings of the study is that 95% of psychiatrists say that cannibis causes psychosis. Have had a particularly weird period of psychosis when I was about 19 (I firmly believed I was the re-incarnation of the goddess Ishtar, to the point of demanding my boyfriend worship me) I know how dangerous these are. I agree, the side effects of the drugs I take to medicate my bi-polar are annoying, and I'd love to get rid of them, but to take something which could make one of the main symptoms of my illness worse - you must be joking. E Lizard Beth 17:28 GMT 20/02/06

Be wary of such correlations, since mental illness diagnosis usually occurs long after the mental illness actually begins. Attempts to show "cause and effect" between mental illness and any activity are unreliable unless mental illness was tested for before an activity. Anarchist42 18:39, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Can we turn down the rhetoric a bit and supply some supporting citation for these assertions? There is no shortage of emotional opinions on the subject, but very little here to back these up. Just not enough room here for trolling/flaming. Limbo socrates 16:02, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I can only speak from personal experience.. but I can say that at least for myself Marijuana has been far more beneficial than detrimental to my illness. In addition to manic depression, i suffer from chronic migraines and TMJ, both of which have been much easier to deal with using marijuana. I will also go through periods of intense insomnia (sometimes 4+ days w/o more than maybe a half hour of sleep a day) that I feel Marijuana has also helped with. At least with myself I can also say that it has helped to relieve some of the intensity of the mood swings I experience as well. I make a living as an artist so I am afraid that with the use of antidepressants I will lose my creative energy (not to mention sex drive), so I have yet to venture down that path and I don’t plan on doing so. The only narcotic that has had a huge, HUGE affect on my bipolar disorder was cocaine, of which even a small dosage will greatly affect me emotionally for weeks at a time. I should also mention that I do not smoke Marijuana very often, if for no other reason that if I smoke it often it tends to lose it's effect.Kisshapedbullet 05:41, 5 October 2006 (UTC)


None of you are biologists or chemists and can only speculate on the pros and cons of med. marijuana through personal experience. This site was not set up to bash smokers or non smokers. All I can add to this discussion is that marijuana has had good and bad effects on my bp1. I can become depressed but usually become hypomanic in a very short period of time, and on a few occassion have gone manic for more than a couple of days. With all the medicines working in your system one should generalize that it will most likely have a negative effect on the user even if it is only judged by the fact that it is a depressant. And Im pretty sure depression is the most common sympton of Bp1 Bp2 Unipolar and Bp(Nos). But if getting hi gets you through the day easier, go for it because you might as well be sick and happy rather than just being sick. Good Luck to all who read this

From a researcher (neuropsychologist): People are different and therefore react differently to drugs, whether they be from the pharmaceutical companies or from the garden. From experience of talking to many patients and non-patients, it is clear that while some people can smoke joints all day long with no obvious immediate ill effects, other people become psychotic after very little exposure. The effect is almost immediate. This was recently confirmed in experiments here at the Institute of Psychiatry, when volunteers were given THC tablets. Some developed florid psychotic symptoms almost immediately, while most did not (none had psychiatric history). The most common symptom was paranoia - which is particlarly dangerous as it is self reinforcing. A paranoid person draws attention to themselves, which feeds the paranoia.

It is important that people have access to unbiased (as far as is possible) information so that they can make their own decisions. My personal advice is to be aware - if you develop paranoia or other symptoms immediately after smoking, then please be especially cautious. If you do not develop such symptoms immediately, be aware that there may be unknown long term side-effects - in addition to those from the act of smoking itself. Of course, if marijuana does seem to have a real theraputic effect for a person, this benefit may outweigh any side effects.

It is possible that drug taking (stimulants, cannabis, antidepressants) may trigger mania or psychosis in people with a predisposition to bipolar disorder. While this in not proven, my opinion is that this is likely, in at last a minority of cases. Given this, it is worth educating children (epecially for families with psychiatric history) about this possibility. My advice for parents is to provide the least emotive, least biased information possible and put forward all the opinions. Children tend to react better to this kind of advice - and are offput by dogma, from whichever direction it comes.

My apologies for the lack of reference. If I have time I shall come back and provide some.

Cleanup

This article is a disaster. Perhaps too many bipolars are in the editing process? <grin> I can tell by looking through the talk page that the edit wars on this subject have been intense. I am a psychology undergraduate at my local state university as well as a type II bipolar. It seems to me there are many places in the article that lack sufficent citation as well as perhaps having information that is outright wrong. For example, the article currently lists THC as a viable treatment option, but I don't see a supporting article in the references section. As I stated below I feel that this article should be split. At the very least the various forms of treatment should be split off to their respective articles. Unless I hear otherwise I will probably begin work on that split as well as increasing the rigor of this article ASAP. Also, since the talk page is rather full, and full of splintered rhetoric I'm wordering if unsigned portions of the talk page that are of undeterminant age ought be moved to the end and given their own section, so that people new to the article, such as myself, can make heads or tails of the conversation at hand. Dark Nexus 16:14, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Although I agree this article is terrible, insulting people with Bi-polar is immature.--Unopeneddoor 22:17, 7 August 2006 (UTC)