Talk:Biofuel/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Undid 21 Mar 2007 deletions

I undid the deletions by 76.0.206.61 because of the sizable amount of material involved and the lack of explanation. --Belgrano 13:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Text removed from the Solar Power page

I removed the following text from the Solar power page, as it was out of place with regard to the category hierarchy in which Biofuel is places under renewable energy (not under solar power). Hope you agree... Jdpipe 22:57, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Biofuels

Main article: Biofuel

The oil in plant seeds, in chemical terms, very closely resembles that of petroleum. Many, since the invention of the Diesel engine, have been using this form of captured solar energy as a fuel comparable to petrodiesel—for functional use in any diesel engine or generator and known as biodiesel.

A 1998 joint study by the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) and the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) traced many of the various costs involved in the production of biodiesel and found that overall, it yields 3.2 units of fuel product energy for every unit of fossil fuel energy consumed.[1] This makes a vegetable oil economy look better than an ethanol economy which has gotten much lower numbers.

Other biofuels include ethanol, wood for stoves, ovens and furnaces, and methane gas produced from biofuels through chemical processes.

Biogas

I am attempting to reword the paragraphs related to biogas. Biogas is slightly different than other biofuels as organic matter is converted first by anaerobic digestion into biogas which can then be utilised in energy generation. It is incorrect to say that biogas is only derived from waste products. Some crops are grown to be fed directly into anaerobic digesters or to boost energy yields from wastes. There are also significant problems & disputes with defining what is "waste" and when it no longer becomes a waste. Also to become truely sustainable thinking one should consider the wider picture as waste being a resource.--Alex 13:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

In most industrial processes there are by-products labeled as waste. As time goes and technology, needs, resource availability etc. changes these waste streams might turn into useful products -- sometimes they'll become the main product. As many (most?) other terms waste is a relative term. Since the value of biogas is rather low, it is natural that mostly (only?) waste streams are used for its production. --Tunheim 11:05, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree that waste is a relative term. The value of biogas can actually be very high. This will depend upon value of energy (which is presently growing in the EU) and any subsidies that are brought for green energy such as Renewables Obligation Certificates. Companies such as Greenfinch in the UK are considering the usage of sugar beet and other crops to increase biogas & energy yields. I understand this practice is also undertaken in mainland Europe.--Alex 15:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

biofuel/no CO2?

the argument that burning biofuels doesnt contribute to atmospheric CO2 doesnt make complete logical sense. just because the carbon was recently extracted doesnt invalidate its re-addition to the atmosphere. By this logic, slash and burn clear-cutting doesnt add CO2 to the atmosphere. Also, the carbon in coal once came from the atmosphere, only it was absorbed into plants millions of years ago and got pushed into the earth. I am likely going to remove this sentence unless no one objects. --Bonus Onus 23:11, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

I completely object. The big difference is the timescale. CO2 from biomass was recently sequestered, so burning it results in no net increase in atmospheric CO2. Burning fossil fuels, releases CO2 that has been sequestered over a very long time period, and is thus a net increase in atmospheric CO2. What would be more correct is for the article to note that a net increase does not occur, instead of saying CO2 is not contributed. - Taxman 03:31, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Taxman. Biofuel entails that you must GROW the crop, and thus sequestered the CO2, before you are able to make the fuel, so the cycle is always going. In the case of "slash and burn clear-cutting", it takes many years before that is replanted, and even more so with fossil fuels. Ag2003 July 19,2006
I don't see how slash and burn clear-cutting is an examble of bioenergy. Please elaborate. --Tunheim 11:11, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I like the new wording of that part now. Its clearer and more correct. And Tunheim, you're right that slash and burn doesnt represent biofuel, since the cut timber is very rarely used to do anything. I was just using that as an example of "adding CO2 to the atmosphere" which it definitely does, since its a transfer from a biological sequestration to gaseous form. Whether or not it is a net increase is debatable, and depends on how old the timber is, etc. --Bonus Onus 20:55, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 :D Ok, now I understand. Sorry, I'm just a tad slow ;) --Tunheim 07:38, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I have heard of swamp grasses being used for bio fuals and due to the roots sotring the co2 in the soil, after burning the plant, the c02 levels in the air end up lower than they originally were. I'm not clear about this so any confirmation would be helpful. I believe the grass mentioned was snapgrass or something similar. Noobeditor 00:36, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Although biofuel is theoreticaly carbon neutral in the whole life cycle of the manufacture of the fuel it is not. It does however give about a 60% reduction compared to petrochemical fuels. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.39.191.66 (talk) 21:57, 9 January 2007 (UTC).
Please provide a source fro that number. --Tunheim 11:11, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

biofuel

The Energy content of Biofuel table is empty. Biofuel for the future!

I do not object. It is inaccurate to assume that CO2 recently fixed from the atmosphere will immediately and totally end up being returned to it. Plants SEQUESTER CO2, largely as cellulose. When you burn a biofuel you potentially increase atmospheric CO2 by removing this sequestration effect. Also it is inaccurate to believe that ALL the CO2 sequesterebd by plants will end up as CO2 again. A lot of is does due to bacterial decomposition and respiration by detritivores but a proportion if it ends up as sequestered dead biomass (peat, oil, shale, slate, coal). By creating an agricultural landscape, there is effectively no opportunity for this to happen. Look at the glebe of a forest and compare it with that of a cornfield or a field of oilseed rape. The soil of a forest is rich in sequestered CO2. The soil of intesively farmed arable land is poor as it comes and only yields what it does due to high levels of fertilizer and pesticide. If cars burnt fossilfuel and land that was to have grown biofuel crops was left totally fallow, then LESS CO2 would end up in the atmosphere than if the land was used to grow these crops. That is obvious if you think about it. Also think of just how much land would be required to grow enough crops to satisfy our energy demands and food as well. Nature would have no chance. We have too much agriculture as it is.

peat

I have removed peat, as it does not fit the description as a renewable form of energy. Also the carbon was not recently extracted from atmospheric carbon dioxide by growing plants, so burning it does contribute to CO2. It may not be as old as other fossil fuels, but it is one in terms of human emission timescales. -- Chris Q 12:54, 2005 Jun 15 (UTC)

It may not be renewable, and you are correct on the other points. However it is still very commonly considered a biofuel. It certainly still is biomass. Most general discussions of biomass and biofuel will use peat as an example. So please put it back in the chart, but note that it is not renewable if you like. - Taxman Talk 13:17, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
Since the article definition of biofuel goes against this I have put a paragraph after the list. In order to add it to the list we would have to change the advantages to say "some biofules" against all the advantages. -- Chris Q 13:41, 2005 Jun 15 (UTC)
You have to be careful not to pigeon hole everything into exactly what our definition says. Nothing is saying our definition is perfect or definitive, and acting as if it were isn't proper. Peat is biomass, and it is burned for fuel. Yes it blurs the lines a bit. What you noted is fine fact wise but could stand to be toned down in an NPOV sense. - Taxman Talk 20:40, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
Sites such as [1] and [2] cleraly define peat as a fossil fuel. I think it is better to leave the definition as it is, which is clearly the most useful definition as far as sustainable energy is concerned. -- Chris Q 06:18, 2005 Jun 16 (UTC)
You'll find other sites that clearly define peat as biomass. The sustainable harvest cycle of peat is rather long. And some slow peat bogs are possibly getting close to some coal types. However there are peat bogs that have rotation cycles faster than slow forests. So instead of trying to fight over where it should be categorized, we should use it as a prime example showing how the sustainability of biomass is based on rotation. And how this whole principle is a gradual thing. --Tunheim 11:20, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Peat is closely related in origin to coal. In fact, peat could have more sulphur. The pea-souper London fogs of the 19th century were due to peat burning. Since peat has higher non-combustible fraction than coal, it creates worse problems with suspended particulate matter if used carelessly. Not only is it a worse pollutant than coal, it is also true that peat, coal and petroleum are all fossil fuels, not biofuels. Bambaiah 13:56, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

Biofuel, serious problems

  • Biofuel is interesting as it clearly a more sustainable form of fuel, and it has been described as "carbon neutral" due the carbon sequestration process of growing biomass. There is one major problem with biofuel as a "carbon neutral" product however. Farming biomass is a very energy intensive practice. Many studies have shown that it takes more energy to farm biofuel (farm equipment, fertalizer, pumping water, transportation) than the fuel actually contains. Essentially this means that using biofuel represents a major net addition of CO2 to the atmosphere, even when sequestration is taken into account.
  • Industrial scale farming is by no means an environmentally benign activity either. There are many good reasons to prevent further expansion of agriculture of this kind, such as: air pollution, chemical fertilizer, pesticides, water pollution, water consumption, habitat destruction, and top soil degradation.
  • Biofuel has one important role to play in making society more sustainable. Biofuel can be created from biological waste already produced in great quantities by humans. Particularly the burning of waste vegetable oil, or electricity generation from landfill or compost methane. So long as we do not waste energy creating new biomass specifically to burn for more energy, we will improve our net carbon output. It is also vital that we do not seek out to remove "wasted biomass" from the natural environment such as waste wood in forests. None of this is actually wasted biomass, and is essential to the sustainabilility of natural ecosystems and the sequestration of carbon into the soil.
  • Biofuels are being used as an excuse not to convert the economy away from fossil fuels. They have a role to play, but industry must be made to transition away from energy sources that rely on combustion altogether, using electricy derived from truly sustainable sources such as solar, wind, or water power.


for more information check out the following journal articles:

  • Sergio Ulgiati. A Comprehensive Energy and Economic Assessment of Biofuels: When "Green" Is Not Enough. Critical Reviews in Plant Sciences. Taylor & Francis. Volume 20, Number 1 / January-February 2001.

David Pimentel. Ethanol Fuels: Energy Balance, Economics, and Environmental Impacts Are Negative. Natural Resources Research. Kluwer Academic Publishers. Volume 12, Number 2. June 2003 Pg 127-134.

Adrian Muller. Burning the Future - Long-term and Large-scale Problems of Bioenergy. Environmental Economics Unit, Department of Economics, G¨oteborg University. July 2005

70.49.6.92 20:12, 3 December 2005 (UTC) 03:11, 03 Dec 2005 (GMT)

    • why not include this material in the article itself under the heading criticism. would make an interesting addition V8rik 21:34, 3 December 2005 (UTC)


It is correct that biofuel is not carbon neutral. However, in most cases it is still beneficeial for the climate. Most of the greenhouse impact of biofuels is from the farming practises, particular fertilizer use. In this case, it is not CO2 that is released, but methane (CH4) a much more potent greenhouse gas than CO2. If i get around to it, I'll edit a section about the environmental impacts of biofuel production. If you want to go ahead, I suggest you read reports on this subject written by CE Delft, or alternatively:" ECOFYS - Biofuels in the Dutch market - a fact finding study". Jens Nielsen 19:11, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I must say that such discussion about biofuel not being carbon neutral because of the energy-intensive farming was true for a while with ethanol from CORN, and it is still close to that even today; therefore, some individuals such as David Pimentel (cited above), can (with their own agenda in mind) "show" that ethanol from corn IS NOT carbon-neutral. Many more studies have shown that, taking into account farming, and all energy inputs to the process, corn from ethanol is about 1.3:1, this is, for every 1 JOULE of energy going into the process by fosil fuels (tractor fuel, natural gas for the process, etc), you get 1.3 JOULES in the form of ethanol. Now, even when ethanol from corn can remain in the "limbo of controversy" because of the little differences between their energy inputs and outputs, such is not the case for biofuels such as BIODIESEL, for instance, whose overall energy balances (including farming) show that the ratio is 3:1, this is, for every 1 Joule of fossil fuel going into the process you get 3 JOULES in the form of Biodiesel. Now, if you go to more productive crops such as ethanol from Sugar Cane (using sugar itself to make ethanol), their energy balances are even more unreachable by individuals such as Pimentel. Energy balances from Brazil (including farming), show that the ratio is 10:1 (i.e., for every 1 Joule of fossil fuels you get 10 joules of energy in the form of ethanol and electricity). The case with sugar cane is such because of its high productivity. The leftover sugarcane bagasse is used to provide energy for the process and the excess can be used to make electricity. SUCH situation, as with sugarcane, will also be seen when cellulosic ethanol production becomes widespread, as high-productivity crops will be used and the leftover biomass can be used to provide energy for the process and for electricity. IN conclusion, even when ethanol from corn might be trapped in controversy regarding on whether it is carbon neutral or not, such is definitely not the case for BIODIESEL, and even more so for Ethanol from sugarcane, and in the future, for cellulosic ethanol. C.Granda 21:32, 20 June 2006 (TAMU)

Bio-fuel can be much better than carbon neutral when agricultural waste is converted to bio-chemicals or fuels. For example, if waste that is normally left to rot, emitting methane which a strong greenhouse gas, is converted instead to chemicals or fuels, there will be a strong net benefit. Consider also rice straw, which cannot be plowed under and is burned in the fields generating fine silica dust that is associated with elevated rates of asthma in children; converting it to chemicals or fuels, brings a strong net benefit.

Consider bio-ethanol produced from corn. If both distillers grains and corn stover are converted to chemicals, fuels or fertilizer, the greenhouse gas balance becomes completely different.

Focusing only on energy balances is simplistic. We need to consider the quality of the product. For example, adding 5 or 10% ethanol to gasoline has major benefits, allowing gasoline to burn more cleanly and increasing the octane number. In this case, the energy requirements for bio-ethanol should be compared to the energy requirements for the production of similar safe additives (MTBE, for example, has been banned in several states).

MIT algae-reactor

(Added later--we couldn't find evidence that MIT maintains a biofuel-producing algae-reactor. Their cogeneration plant runs on natural gas. If someone has definite information one way or the other, please provide a reference.) User:68.252.228.112

The external link (http://cogen.mit.edu/index.cfm) provided in the article shows that the MIT generator is powered by conventional fuels, NOT by algae or any other biofuel. I have therefore deleted the paragraph that describes this generator, since it has no relevance to biofuels. User:Deyholos

Biofuel as energy extender?

Biofuels may or may not be atmosphere-friendly. Seems to me it could be seen as an extender of current technology until we can develop other fuels. BPearson


Biotech method of producing Biofuel

Anybody who have some ideas on this? WHat are those biofuel that is produced via BIOTECH method? Where can I find those sources? Pls kidly reply to just_once_only_you@yahoo.com. TQ.

The energy chart must go!

The energy chart is way too big and now too comprehensive for this specific article, I think it should become its own article, something like "Energy source comparisons", "Fuel comparisons", etc (someone think of a name). We can broaden everything about the fuels such as there melting points, boiling points, efficiency of recycling, etc, and provide a comprehensive chart of all fuel/energy sources. --BerserkerBen 15:13, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Awww (insert childish whining here), I was really getting into the modding of this chart. [I have since written maybe 60% of the info on this chart by now, and was hoping to get it finished before someone finally made some sort of inevitable suggestion/complaint.] I didn't start the chart, just inserted info that seemed relevant to the topic (like the column on CO2 gas-produced mass per fuel-used mass (something I haven't completed yet 'cause I haven't found a complete answer on the proportions and chemical compositions of the average sample of "Animal Waste", "Coal", "Petroleum" and average "Vegetable Oil"s (Soybean Oil makes maybe 40% of world production, but has poor energy content per fuel mass, and even worse energy content per CO2 gas-prod. mass (an idea for another column, but alas, there is only so much space on the average 1024x768 screen.)))) I also wanted to insert numbers where it says "Compression Dependant", and was thinking about using the average temperatures and pressures used in the industry of gas delivery (different for "Compressed Gas" and "Liquified Gas", by about 4 fold), but like I said, I didn't start the article, and don't want to offend it's projenitor by deleting, usurping, or otherwise "misplacing" large portions of data that he/she started (I only started working on this article in reverance of the questions that he/she started me to contemplating). But, if there is sufficient consensus among this Wikipedia community (the greatest and most inspiring I have yet to encounter since the Linux community (too bad Lostpedia [[3]] closed it's sources)), then I would be open to the idea of copying this chart as it is to either a page of it's own (like Comparison of Energy-Mediums OR Energy-Media)(fully linked to and from all pages that it references) AND/OR to the Energy development page AND/OR the Future energy development page. It should also be noted prior to data-transplantation, that the Fuel Cell and Battery Energy Storage sections (both of which I added in full) only relate to useable electrical energy output, they also "bleed" heat energy at a rate proportional to the rate at which elec. energy is extracted from them (Ampereage/Electric current). All other non-nuclear sources relate to their heat energy output which may be modulated either by use of a heat furnace AND/OR heat engine AND/OR internal combustion engine (a device which use heat to create pressure changes, without really using the heat itself). Their combustion really only has negative-side effects when you're not sure where to put the CO2 (now that we know to put carbon into plants, we're not sure which plants will consume carbon quikly, while storing solar energy densly into itself, for us to harvest back, without consuming more energy in the whole process, than we harvest back, compared to say, solar power). In direct response to your suggestion though BerserkerBen, I'm a tad sceptical of how adding the info of melting points, boiling points & efficiency of recycling, would be terribly helpful (only 'cause Diesel and certain Oils combust spontaneously under (rapid-)pressurisation). It might require a sub-chart like Comparison_of_BitTorrent_software page OR the Comparison_of_operating_systems page (I do apreciate the colour coding, anything to make the data more accessible, like the colourful charts and graphs of Television's (semi-)news. As hinted to above, an appropriate title to consider is "Comparison of Energy-Storage-Mediums" OR "Comparison of Energy-Media". All fuels mentioned in the chart are mere Energy Storage Mediums, as they (plants mainly) derived their energy from the Sun, and progressively over time were compressed underground by the gravity of the Earth. Thusly, solar, tidal, wind and geothermal power (heat engine from hot-mantle to cool-surface, OR cold-sea-bed to warm-surface) are the only sources of energy that seem sustainable (for at-least 1000 years) with current technologies. --Anonymous 07:15, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Upon closer examination of various fuels, especially Vegetable oils as fuels, I concur with your assessment that listing the melting points and boiling points of fuels will be helpful as they can be used as indicators to fuel-reaction rates, thermal-energy outputs, phase-change pressure-differentials and perhaps some other key properties worth considering, especially when dealing with Internal combustion engines. As I understand them, ICEs function by using the pressure-change of cool petrol + air mix => hot CO2 + H2O + CO + NOx, a pressure shift of ~1000 factors (ie. the pressure in the piston chamber increases by a few thousand at the rate at which the fuel burns (reacts with air when sparked by spark-plug)). Recycling efficiency is also worth mentioning. --Anonymous 05:10, 01 May 2006 (UTC)

Well I was thinking that things such as batteries would have columns (basically the chart becomes split into several charts) related to them such as efficiency of recycling (recharging), energy storage density (Wh/kg), energy production density (W/kg) energy volumes (wh/l) (w/l) etc. that kind of thing, really I too have added some to the chart and think that its has become big enough to be its own article with a little added introduction. --BerserkerBen 01:28, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like they're all good ideas. In fact, {related to Recycling} now that I think about it, all fossil fuels and biofuels can also be recycled, if for example you carefully extracted pure CO2 from the atmosphere (or more easily from the power plant, or geosequestration rock-depositor) then mixed it with pure Hydrogen, subjected the mix to intense heat and pressure with various catalysts (like Vanadium, Nickel, Platinum, Palladium, Rhodium or Ruthenium for example), you should output first Methane then heavier, more complex compounds under higher pressures & lower temperatures (I understand this process to be Hydrogenation). Fossil fuel recycling is a very costly and time consuming process, made especially pointless as most of the hydrogen produced industrially comes from the De-Hydrogenation of fossil fuels in the first place. So the efficiency of recycling (recharging) fuels is definetly key to the sustainability of our developing energy-economy (how is the first world NOT part of the developing world, just a bit further along that's all :-]). {related to Energy density}You should notice however that 1 W.h = 1 Watt-hour = 60 (minutes) * 60 Watt.seconds = 3600 Joules = 3.6 kJoules. Joules is a much better form of measuring total work energy, especially because both batteries and fuel cells that are not functioning at peak efficiency will still release their total amount of energy, just more of it will be released as heat at lower efficiency levels (when not using combined heat + elec. efficiency calculations). So energy density relates to total energy density, not modulated by operating efficiency, working conditions, or thermal/electrical resistance/insulation. (related to energy production density) As 1 Watt = 1 Joule per second, 1 Watt per kg = 1 Joule per kilogram.second (1 W/kg = 1 J/kg.s). With batteries, these numbers are easy to input, but for fossil & biofuels and fuel cells, the rate at which energy can be extracted from the fuel, depends on the cumulative number-of, size and efficiency of the reactor(s) (or engine(s) be they heat engine(s) or ICE(s)). At which point, energy rates is an entirely new chart in of itself, where you're comparing biofuel reactors against fossil fuel reactors (or engines), fuel cells and batteries (and photovoltaics, solar heaters, geothermal plants, EM collectors, and all other methods of extracting energy from various energy-storage-mediums (those words again, remember: energy cannot be destroyed AND energy cannot be created, it can only be moved around and transformed from other forms, hopefully for our purposes (the greatest store-houses of energy are the earth and the sun, while energy wells of any form on the earth will always dry-up, the sun rarely fluctuates it's output by more than 0.15% every 10.87 years)). Note: the Sun outputs to the Earth 1366.35 W/m². That means that every 64 hours, the earth receives from the sun as much energy as the total amount of energy stored within all of the earth's fossil fuel deposits (~200 Myears old)(3.9 × 10^22 J (2003)). --Anonymous 05:10, 01 May 2006 (UTC)

Aaah CO2 recycling is the point to biofuels, as long has you grow new energy crops each year equal to or greater then the year before all CO2 produced by biofuels is negated by a equally size CO2 sink. Which is why I disagree about having CO2 values for biofuels. But anyways the move is underway!--BerserkerBen 11:12, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the chart would be better in it's own article. --Salix alba (talk) 11:00, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Petroleum fertilizers

Removed from the main article page as it is inappropriate there:

Can someone get stats to account for the amount of petroleum based fertilizers applied to crops grown for bio-fuel. Unless this is acknowledged the true sustainability or production costs of bio-fuel cannot be stated. Because fossil based fertilizers still release CO2 and are finite. —203.96.102.115

—auk

That whole discussion is a bog that I think we should only touch lightly. For one there is no consensus on the topic, and any summary written by us here would closely resmble original research. I'll try to list some of the things that make this difficult:
  • Fossil fuel is used much more heavily in agricultural biomass compared to forestry biomass. Both are used as bioenergy.
  • High quality biofuels (e.g. bioethanol) is more resource intensive than low quality (e.g. wood chips). On the other hand, so is the case for the petroleum equivalents (e.g. petrol and coal).
  • It may take one energy unit of petrol to produce two energy units of bioethanol, making the CO2-saving only 50 %. But then it should also be taken into consideration that it may take one energy unit of crude oil for every two units of petrol. So for every unit substituted there is an additional 50 % gain. This example would give a CO2-saving of 75 % by substituting petrol with bioethanol.
  • Growing corn for bioethanol is not done only for the energy. The dried distiller's grain that are left when the sugar is removed from the corn is very high in protein. This makes it more valuable as animal feed than regular corn. It may be argued that the energy used for the corn growing was for this purpose primarily and so it is the beef-eaters of the world that are contributing to this energy use.
  • Then many of theses processes are not yet scaled up enough to show their true nature (good and bad).
--Tunheim 11:31, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

What about hydrogen?

Also hydrogen can be produced by using algae, even if the research is still in an early stage. Cars and such who are running on hydrogen producued by micro-organism should be considered as a case of biofuel too.

On a similar note, there is also research being conducted into the production of a (crude) bio-oil from micro-organisms: reuters report

Direct biofuel

G'day, I don't understand what the point of the Direct biofuel section is. Biofuels such as straight vegetable oil and palm oil, which can be directly used in diesel engines, are not mentioned in this section, but derived (i.e. indirect) fuels such as ethanol and biodiesel are. The section doesn't make any sense to me, and I think it should either be removed, or rewritten to make some sense. Webaware 13:29, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Did my edit address your concerns?User:bluGill
Much better, but the section still seems unnecessary to me. However, I'm no biofuelled engine enthusiast. I gave it a bit of a cleanup anyway. Webaware 00:48, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I note the expansion of the biofuels page, specifically the direct biofuels page. You mention a direct biofuel is one that can be used directly in a petroleum engine. Biogas can be also be used directly but in a standard gas engine. --Alex 08:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I think the name is bad. This page is not well organized. Direct biofuels are mostly addressing transportation (at least after my edits, and it seems to be what the intent was), but the definition and heading means that several fuels are eliminated from this section. Biogas won't run in any "traditional" engine without modification, so it isn't a direct biofuel, yet it is clearly a biofuel of importance. I'm not ready to propose a complete reorganization, but perhaps someone should, with sections on heating, cooking, transportation, and electric. BluGill 18:38, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

The following passage moved from introduction

I dont see that these companies are so relevant to the topic of biofuels they should be mentioned in the introduction to an encyclopedia article. Seems to me to be spam. --Alex 14:59, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Genencor and Novozymes are two other companies that have received United States government Department of Energy funding for research into reducing the cost of cellulase, a key enzyme in the production cellulosic ethanol by enzymatic hydrolysis.

Other enzyme companies, such as Dyadic International, Inc. (AMEX: DIL), have been using fungi to develop and manufacture cellulases in 150,000 liter industrial fermenters.

Yep, spam. --Tunheim 11:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Biofuels and biomass fuels

What is biofuel? It seems that in common usage the term biofuel is used to mean a liquid or gas fuel that is derived from biomass while the term "biomass fuel" (which redirects here) means biomass is used directly as a fuel. [4]This article seems to be using the term biofuel to mean gas or liquied fuels in the history section, it says biofuel was first used in the "early days of the car industry". Then in the section "Applications of biofuels" it says "Typical fuels for this are wood, charcoal or dried dung". Is wood a biofuel? Is wood considered to be "derived" from biomass? The article also uses the term "bioenergy". What is bioenergy? Both biofuels and biomass fuels? (it also redirect to biofuels). KAM 15:03, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Bioenergy, depending on it's use, is a hypernym or synonym of biofuel. It seems to be the more common term in Europe as opposed to biofuel being the more common in the US. The term bioenergy is also sometimes used in medical text, but then to describe something completely unrelated to this arena. --Alf 11:18, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
bio·fu·el (from Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary)
Pronunciation: -primarystressfyü(-schwa)l
Function: noun
Date: 1970
 : a fuel (as wood or ethanol) composed of or produced from biological raw materials -- compare FOSSIL FUEL
--Tunheim 19:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Bioenergy

Since bioenergy has a slightly different meaning than biofuel and also can refer to a medical concept, should we make it a separate article? Any thoughts? --Alf 11:19, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Lacking any protests, change has been made. Check out the bioenergy article. It's only a stub so far --Tunheim 16:47, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Contradict

{{Contradict}} removed since there was no post at the talk page elaborating what was contradictory. --Alf 13:04, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[layout] text wrap-around the jpg in first section...

   I don't know how to make the markup edit, but the text line beginning with "Biofuel can be used both for central and decentralized" is too close to the top of the "Sugar_cane_leaves.jpg" image. In some page loads the text is partially obscured. Adequate whitespace exists at the bottom of the image to move it down or a ~1/2 line space could be added above. Tickerhead 06:25, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Ecological Impact

The section "Criticisms", subsection "Ecological Impact" has the following problems:

1. The first paragraph states that biofuels prevent climate change and as its evidence of this, simply makes the statement again. This paragraph should be removed, since it is an unsubstatiated claim (and a pretty big one at that!).

2. There are no references for any of the statements made in this subsection.

3. This subsection is pretty (suspiciously?) glowing in praise; if references can be found, this subsection should not be in under "Criticisms".

Piquin 20:40, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


This article is looking scrappy and needs a good reworking. Any takers?!--Alex 16:00, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Smog?

Even though biofuels close the carbon cycle, wouldn't biofuels still produce smog when burned, just like conventional gasoline and diesel? —Ben FrantzDale 21:03, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes they do, sometimes even worst because the engines are not designed for the biofuel, biodiesel has this particular problem. Lkleinjans 12:25, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
What a shame... close the carbon cycle but still pollute. If that's the case, it should be mentioned in the article. —Ben FrantzDale 14:02, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Bioethanol/ethanol combustion contributes less smog as combustion temperatures inside the cylinder are lower compared to diesel and petroleum engines, and so less NOx is formed from nitrogen and oxygen reacting. NOx contibutes to photochemical smog

2nd generation fuels

I was very surprised to see nothing on 2nd generation fuels in this article. So I added some stuff I know. I will gather more references over the next weeks, so please don't delete! Lkleinjans 19:38, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Proposal of New layout of Article

I would like to propose a new layout for the biofuel article. Firstly:

  • Shorten the introduction - it goes into too much depth
  • Abolish Direct Biofuel heading
  • Abolish Second Generation Biofuel heading
  • Abolish Examples heading and subheadings

Replace these with a list of all known biofuels stating below each biofuel how it is made -wikilinking to processes-; where it can be used -wikilinking to uses- and then state in which countries it is being used and to what percentage. Also for biofuels such as biodiesel and bioethanol provide a 'main article' link. This page should be a summary of all biofuels linking to the main pages of those biofuels and to the main pages of the processes and biomasses to make those biofuels. It can be stated below a biofuel heading if it is direct use or not. For instance:

Biodiesel

Main article: biodiesel

  • Production Raw Materials - e.g. Rapeseed
  • Production Methods - e.g. Transesterification of SVO or waste fat
  • Uses - e.g. as replacement for mineral diesel in diesel engines, can be used directly without engine modification. Currently used in the following countries: Europe etc.
  • Criticism - Palm oil rainforests etc.

Another heading of interest could be Biofuel Policies for instance in the UK 5% of all fuel sold must be biofuel by 2010 [5]

Could people please let me know what they think! Lkleinjans 19:53, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Back to Biofuel

"On the down side, methane has a global warming potential of 23 relative to CO2." The statement above is in the article but what is meant by down side. Is methane good or bad for the environment and how is it good or bad by burning it or doing nothing. @June 18 2007 by Daron Smith

The biofuel article is biased. Using fossil fuel to produce biofuel violates the principle of using biofuel in the first place. The burning of fossil fuel is one of the main causes of carbon dioxide increase leading to global worming. The planting of new crops especially legumes that don’t need fertilizers and then converting them to biofuel to replace all burning of fossil fuel would reduce the carbon dioxide in the air dramatically. @June 1 2007 by Daron Smith

Dear Daron Smith, I agree it is ridiculous that biofuels can be called biofuel when they are produced using mainly fossil fuels, but that is what First generation biofuels are, they usually on reduce carbon emissions by 20-40% instead of the 100% most people expect; Second generation fuels are a bit better at about 80% carbon emissions savings as opposed to using fossil fuel. But at the moment it is almost impossible to produce anything that doesn't have a net carbon emission due to the whole fossil oil economy.
Also try and get a user name at wikipedia, that way you can sign your comments using ~~~~ and so people can't see your IP address. Cheers Lkleinjans 22:14, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Daron. How do we convert the legumes to biofuel? Where does the energy come from if not fossil fuel? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.80.182.171 (talk) 03:37, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

definations of biofuels

If you google the terms: biofuel and glossary (and term, biomass) you will find that about 80% or more define it as a liquid or gas fuel derived from biomass. Calling wood a biofuel may be technically correct but confusing and swimming against the tide. KAM 01:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

  • Hi KAM. If your point concerns wood (solid fuel?) and is directed to me, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Solid fuel has been specifically mentioned in the lead for some time. The changes I recently made were really just cosmetic and are unrelated to this point. TheBusiness 07:03, 7 June 2007 (UTC) Ok, I think you meant this in relation to wood fuel, so I've changed that back to just "fuel". TheBusiness 09:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
    • - Yes I shouldn't have edited in such an abrupt manner, it was done in a moment of impatience. Just from general reading it seems that the term biofuel is almost always used to mean liquid or gas fuels for transportation which I think you agree. Saying wood is a biofuel seems pedantic to me However it seems to me that, as written, it implies that this article is going to define the term biofuels in a more narrow manner then it's general use which would be original research. I though my edits just clarified what what was already implied in the article. For now I will remove the sources that I don't think support the statement and I apologize for the manner in which I made the edits. KAM 11:33, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


International efforts

Should be changed to national efforts because that is what it has become. International is deferent depending on you location. Dsmith7707 11:33, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

EU biofuel report

Hi, I just moved the section about the UN Biofuel report and it's concerns into the criticisms section. The reprt raises (and serves as a citation) for two issues already covered in criticism -- food security and environmental impacts. Envirocorrector 12:52, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

See also vs. Energy Contents

So, the section called "energy contents of biofuel" was not that, listing things like the biosphere and hybrid cars. So I merged it in with see also. Another editor had just deled see also entirely, which seems drastic to me, since this article rightly link to lots of other interesting, and more in-depth, information on specific fuels, etc. Now the see also section is unweildy and long, maybe we can cut anything with another link in the article - all the specific fuels, for example, and let this category serve to cover other intersting info. Envirocorrector 09:55, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Inappropriate template

The template:renewable energy sources has been vandalized to change it to say "Energy development" instead of "Renewable energy" which is what it should say. Nuclear power also needs to be deleted. Very few people think that nuclear power is "renewable energy". Template has been restored and protected for one week.199.125.109.108 07:19, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Greenhouse Emission

Recent research suggesting certain biofuels releases more harmful greenhouse gases than fossil fuel [6]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.188.22.40 (talk) 01:01, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Second generation biofuels research at Cambridge University

I believe Cambridge University also has done research with second-generation biofuels (I think woodchips?). I heard it on a BBC-radio program. It was said that the University had a working car on woodchips. Perhaps it is possible to look into this and add it to the article ?

Thanks,

Zippo 11:34, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Carbon Emissions

On Sep. 14, 2007 someone added this to the main article:

"This does assume however that the land used for growing the crops would alternatively be desert or paved area. If the land was previously a (tropical rain-) forest, the carbon absorption of this forest should be deducted from the greenhouse gas savings. This implies that the net effect of burning bio-fuels is an increase in greenhouse gasses."

that seems like a completely bogus inference to me. the poster seems to be ignoring or unaware of the fact that a renewable bio-fuel is a closed carbon cycle and/or it assumes that only a single crop is harvested from each bio-fuel field

IOW, the net difference between the carbon in the previous forest and the carbon in the bio-fuel farm is a one time offset, versus the continuous output of carbon from a non-renewable fuel

Bruceadler 22:45, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Renewable fuels.

  • Oppose. Both articles are quite extensive and merging them will not only be difficult but will create an article that will be too large. They are also separate topics and therefore deserve separate article. -- Alan Liefting talk 09:44, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment. I agree, that putting all information together into one article will create a large article. However, lot of information is repeated and lot of information has to be moved into spin-off articles. These section in merged article should use summary style. Beagel 16:46, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Hmmm. On closer inspection the aricle needs a jolly good cleanup. There is an obvious hierarchy in topics here:
  • Oppose, for the reasons given by Alan... Johnfos 09:55, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose, Couldn't you call any fuel created through solar energy renewable? There are biological, chemical, and physical examples of this. twannier 09:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Support. Both articles talks about biofuels and there is no need to have two articles about exactly same topics. Both existing articles need extensive clean-up(particularly Renewable fuels). Lot of information should be removed into existing branch articles, and if necessary, spin-off articles should be created. Things, which is not about biofuels (renewable fuels) should be removed (e.g. there is no need to repeat peak oil theory under renewable fuels - we have special article for this).Beagel 16:46, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Support/Oppose. I agree that something needs to be done, as they are rather redundant, however, i do not believe that merging the two alone is the solution. As Alan Liefting states, there is an obvious hierarchy. Perhaps Renewable fuels should first be better organized as the parent entry for, "renewable fuels" and containing brief summaries about each form of renewable fuel. Then, more detailed entries can reside in the specific renewable fuel entries, such as Biofuels. This appears to be a hierarchy issue. Javier Odom 01:21, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment. I agree with this hierarchy. In this case the Renewable fuels should consists a brief summaries about biofuels, about hydrogen fuels (if it will be verified to be renewable fuel) and maybe something else (is there any other renewable fuel?). But in this case there is nothing you could use from the existing article. It could be logical to merge existing article into Biofuels, and write a new article on renewable fuels.Beagel 16:39, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Not all renewable fuels are derived from biological/agricultural processes, for example hydrogen fuel can be made industrially from wind or solar energy. Most renewable fuels might currently be synonymous with biofuels, but they are not intrinsically the same, and deserve separate articles as I see it. I also support Alan's heirarchy of Fuels -> Renewable fuels -> Biofuels. --chodges 01:38, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment. That's true that it's possible to produce hydrogen fuel from renewables, but does that mean that hydrogen fuel itself is a renewable fuel? It could be classified so if there is any solid reference saying that. Is there any other renewable fuel what is not a biofuel?Beagel 16:29, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose. All biofuels are renewable, but not all renewable energies are biofuels. Alan's heirarchy of Fuels -> Renewable fuels -> Biofuels is ideal. With respect to hydrogen fuel, it can be produced from biomass, or not. It fits in both categories. But this applies to biodiesel vs diesel, and biobutanol vs butanol too. Some fuels that are made from fossil reserves can also be made from biomass. Jim 17:33, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
  • I do not see overwhelming support for the merge so lets drop it. Instead focus on removing redundancy: this article could be much more brief if content is left to satellite pages. V8rik 21:18, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
    • merge discussion closed: no merge V8rik (talk) 17:57, 4 March 2008 (UTC)