Talk:Big Four (companies)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For Registered Agent: "Big Four" is defined as "Four dominant companies that constitute an oligopoly". This is certainly not the case. If anything, there is a "Big Two", CT and CSC of course, as NRAI is about 1/4 the size in comparison. And who is Incorp Services, Inc? In Delaware, the top incorporating State in the country, Incorp doesn't even blip on the radar screen. Certainly not part of "an oligopoly".
- Right, but when law firms or paralegals, etc. refer to the "Big Four", those are the companies they are referring to. Delaware is one state. I believe Florida actually has been forming more entities than Delaware lately. It probably has something to do with it that ISI is more dominant on the west coast. Just as with CSC, CT and NRAI, you have to consider the other firms that they acquired as well as those probably factor into the totals. Last numbers I saw, CT was over 1,000,000 units total, CSC around 750,000-900,000, NRAI at 160,000-180,000 and ISI at 55,000-65,000. I hear that NRAI is being shopped to the other companies right now. If ISI buys them, then that would cement a "Big 3" easily. If the price is right, ISI probably should. Some guy from Corporate Creations was saying recently on Wiki that CC was a Big Four agent, but I looked at 4 states and their numbers just don't even come close. I had not even ever heard of them. They then corrected acknowledging that their volume was not close to ISI, but that they had higher quality clients. I'm not sure how that factors in, but personally, if I were them I would rather have quality than quantity. CC does represent some Fortune 500 companies though, so maybe that is the consideration. Maybe CC should be included as well. One thing do believe is that if CT or CSC acquires NRAI, then it should probably be shortened to a "Big Two" or something since it would be a 900,000 unit difference. I'm not sure that ISI would be as dominant a force if that happens (and it probably will). Who actually designates the "Big Four" though? Or is it just an industry thing? First time I ever heard it was from our old CSC rep. Who cares? I'm done with this issue, I just unfortunately have to know about it on occasion. (LOL) Dougieb 10:55, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
- For the sake of disclosure, I work for small registered agent company not even mentioned on these Boards, and in all our travels and exhibiting and working with other clients, I have never heard the term "Big Four". But, drawing on the strict Wiki definition of "Big Four", four dominant companies that constitute an oligopoly, then your numbers make clear that ISI and maybe NRAI should not be considered members. CT and CSC together make up about 70% of the industry (not even a duopoly by economic definitions!), but it is pretty clear that if ISI were to disappear, it would not impact the industry. I agree with your point that DE is but one state, but if you are talking about industry dominance you can't ignore Delaware, the top incorporating State in the country, nor can you ignore the whole east coast of the US. For instance, National Corporate Research (NCR) has 40,000--60,000 companies in Delaware and New York _alone_, so they must be larger than ISI and would be a better candidate for inclusion in a Big Four, if there was one. I just argue that, in the Registered Agent Industry, there isn't such a thing as "Big Four". So, Dougieb, are you in the industry? And I'm also very curious where you get the total unit numbers? Our research department would love to get a hold of those :)Jtwilley 13:28, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
- Exhibiting? There are actually registered agent conventions? (LOL) On Delaware, again, my numbers show that Florida is doing more units than DE and I'm sure anyone that's ever worked with DE vs. working with WY or FL could tell you why. WY and FL have nice people working at their state offices. I've heard of NCR actually which you mentioned and recall I did a stat sample one time of like 5 states. I think the consideration in their #'s was that only active paid units were considered in the numbers I saw (but I could be wrong.) NCR should petition whomever it is to be in the Big Four, five or whatever it actually is. There are a number of sources for total numbers in various states. Westlaw, Lexis, and the states themselves release this information as well. It is sometimes complex to calculate since companies may operate under a number of different names that are similar. For example: CT might have 500+ agent records under "CT", "CT Corporation", "Corporation Trust Company", etc. Even a comma or period might create an extra record in some states. Each one of those records may have 1, 5, or 500 companies under it. Delaware is one of the only states with a relatively cohesive agent record. CSC still has units under Prentice Hall, so these all have to be taken into account when there is a company that has done any acquisitions or mergers. I am not in the industry directly, but have the displeasure to work around it on occasion and I have a couple friends that work in it and relate interesting info (most of which is too ribald and unverifiable to share here). (LOL) No offense, but waiting around for people to get sued is a little slow for me. I did write the Wiki articles on CT, CSC and NRAI though. Three was enough! When my non-disclosure expires, I'll be happy to work with your research department! Also, I agree that the agent article is getting washed down in favor of just CT and CSC. I used to have it in there that there were hundreds of companies, etc., but over time it has been edited and edited and edited away. You can't put instructions on there with search terms for Google though. Definitely not allowed! (LOL) Thanks for pointing that out though it probably won't change. Wiki is constantly evolving. Just today someone (I assume NRAI (LOL)) added NRAI to that article - and I think they SHOULD be included, but they were previously erased by another long-standing editor. A lot of companies try to add their links to their webpages thinking that it will improve their internet prestige, but that isn't how Wiki works. Has no effect whatsoever. Nada. This is because of nofollow tags in every Wiki article. Usually it seems that once they realize this, they give up trying to SPAM the article. After seeing your edit again this morinng, I talked with two paralegals this morning just saying "Who are the Big Four", and one rattled off all four and the other three. I disagree with your removal, but don't care enough to correct it. (LOL) Keep contributing! Dougieb 16:06, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
- For the sake of disclosure, I work for small registered agent company not even mentioned on these Boards, and in all our travels and exhibiting and working with other clients, I have never heard the term "Big Four". But, drawing on the strict Wiki definition of "Big Four", four dominant companies that constitute an oligopoly, then your numbers make clear that ISI and maybe NRAI should not be considered members. CT and CSC together make up about 70% of the industry (not even a duopoly by economic definitions!), but it is pretty clear that if ISI were to disappear, it would not impact the industry. I agree with your point that DE is but one state, but if you are talking about industry dominance you can't ignore Delaware, the top incorporating State in the country, nor can you ignore the whole east coast of the US. For instance, National Corporate Research (NCR) has 40,000--60,000 companies in Delaware and New York _alone_, so they must be larger than ISI and would be a better candidate for inclusion in a Big Four, if there was one. I just argue that, in the Registered Agent Industry, there isn't such a thing as "Big Four". So, Dougieb, are you in the industry? And I'm also very curious where you get the total unit numbers? Our research department would love to get a hold of those :)Jtwilley 13:28, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
