Talk:Big Dipper

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[edit] Odin's Wain

In Neil Gaiman's American Gods, a character, Zorya Polunochnaya says it is also named Odin's Wain. If someone has a 'better' reference, maybe we should add it to the article. bogdan 20:13, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Odin, the AllFather of Norse Mythology, was often said to travel around his world in a wagon. Going from house to house and teaching his people his legacy - mainly lessons of hospitality, life, and how to worship the Gods. He often appeared as an old vagabound with a wide-brimmed hat and gray hair that covered the eye-socket.

[edit] Japanese Hokuto

Well, what does Hokuto mean that it is interesting enough for this article? Evertype 22:00, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I clarified that portion of Japanese--it means northern dipper, and is a name common to Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc. --ian (talk) 16:40, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Starry Plough

First, a "thank you" to Dermo69 for adding the info. I have modified the contribution and feel that I should explain why.

  • I have moved it up in the article to be with the other national/ethnic entries.
  • I changed "big dipper" to "figure" so as not to imply that "big dipper" is the real name.
  • I changed the link from "Starry Plough" which leads to a disambiguation page, to "Starry Plough (flag)" which gets directly to the heart of the matter. I also boldfaced it.
  • I dropped the links to "republicanism," "socialism," "John Connoly," and the "ICA" as inappropriate for this page. Note that they are all linked from the "Starry Plough (flag)" page.

Thanks again for the addition. B00P 05:02, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, that's better.Thanks Dermo69

[edit] Entry Order

Having just reverted the order of entries to "Plough," then "Big Dipper" from what was, and with some justice, called a more logical order, I feel it necessary to explain why.

When I wrote the article, it replaced previous pages on both the Plough and the Big Dipper. As there are more North Americans than Britons, and being one of the former, myself, I naturally picked "Big Dipper" as the title. This being the case, it seemed only right that "Plough" should come first.

  1. Having done a search on "Plough" and seeing the title "Big Dipper," a reader would feel reassured that he was at the correct article if the boldfaced "Plough" was at the beginning of the article.
  2. I did not want to leave the impression that "Big Dipper" is the real name, which the British, due to some quaint whim, call "The Plough."
  3. Historically, "The Plough" is the older name, which is another reason to give it pride of place.

Thus while I appreciate the thought behind changing the order, it seems best to leave it as it was. B00P 01:16, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


OK then - I thought that the paragraph that dealt directly with the article title should logically come first, but I don't feel any strong impulse to argue. But I was quite attached to my para breaks - British, N European, Modern American - and shouldn't the pre-contact American para be merged with or immediately preceding/following the Modern American? (Interesting that some of the American Aboriginal peoples also called it the Bear, but referring only to the four stars of the "scoop" of the Dipper).
Hardly worth taking a canopener to the article over this, I know, as long as all the facts are accessible.

Just reread this, and realized that I should have mentioned that I followed the anonymous interloquitor's paragraph advice way back when.B00P (talk) 21:45, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 12 Nov 2006 Revert

There was a recent flurry of changes made to the article. These included improvements, vandalism (and reverts), errors, and others working at cross purposes. As it was impossible to disentagle them, I have reverted to an earlier stage and then restored the valid additions. Voidvector's input was helpful in clarifying the matter. B00P 14:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] the same correct word for the constellation is Major Ursa

so we need for Big Dipper a Redirect on Mayor Ursa 85.8.124.246 13:08, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

The Big Dipper is a *part* of Ursa Major (not Major Ursa) Nik42 02:10, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Same in German. Ursa Maior = Großer Bär, Großer Wagen is only a part of Ursa Maior. Only 7 (ok 8 since Mizar/Alkor are 2 stars) stars form the Plough/Großer Wagen, Ursa Maior are more than 20 stars. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BangOlafson (talk • contribs) 21:05, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

It is important, when reporting non-English terms for the Big Dipper/Plough, not to confuse them with names for Ursa Major as a whole. I have just deleted German, Russian, and French names meaning "Great Bear." Editors are encouraged to expand the Ursa Major article with such information. B00P (talk) 23:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Native Americans

A widespread American Indian figuration had the bowl as a giraffe. Some groups considered the handle to be three cubs following their mother, while others pictured three hunters tracking the giraffe.

A giraffe? Giraffes aren't native to North America, so how could they picture it as a giraffe? Nik42 06:42, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I just read that and thought the same thing. I am gonna remove that. WookMuff 08:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I was about to remove it when I realised it was probably vandalism changing bear to giraffe. I went to the linked article and found that indeed the big dipper is seen as a bear in at least some native american cultures. WookMuff 08:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Coffin followed by three mourning women

I remember a visit to a planetarium, where the lecturer said that Arabian mythology calls the big dipper coffin followed by 3 mourning women, because it moves across the night sky quadrangle-first. Can anybody confirm this name? Dr. Hok 15:55, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Not that exactly, but there is this:
The Arabians saw a coffin and mourners in this constellation. The coffin is formed by the four stars of the dipper's cup; the mourners, sons of the deceased, are the three stars in the handle. The three stars here are following the North Star seeking vegeance, for it is that star that killed their father.
If you do a google search for "big dipper coffin" (without quotation marks) you'll find a lot more. Gh5046 (talk) 22:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Six or seven stars?

Part of the article under the 'See Also' section refers to there being only six stars in the Big Dipper, with Alkaid being in another constellation. This contradicts the image at the start of the article. Can someone with more knowledge than me verify what is correct and alter as appropriate? Joldy 19:27, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Alkaid is eta Ursa Majoris, and so certainly in the same "constellation". The Big Dipper is merely an "asterism", but even then I've never seen any definition other than the all seven stars. Deleted text:
"It is important to note that the Big Dipper only contains 6 stars. There is a 7th star (Alkaid) that sometimes looks like it is part of the Big Dipper, but it is actually part of another star constellation."
gparker 08:31, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

--69.140.199.78 (talk) 16:50, 8 March 2008 (UTC)--69.140.199.78 (talk) 16:50, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Otava

Once again, I have removed the line, "In modern Finnish, Otava is also known as the name of a Finnish publishing house (see: Otava)."

I point out to our contributor that this is English Wikipedia, and this information - with yet a second link - is of no value to the article. If you wish to have your firm better known, pay for an advertisement. B00P (talk) 23:24, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Big Dipper Etymology

It is essential to note that the term Big Dipper is a deformation to the Arabic name Ad-Dibb Al-Akbar meaning the Big Bear. Al-Kaid is also Arabic meaning the LEADER. The Arab contribution in astronomy is clear, note the names of the Orion constellation stars. Noureddine (talk) 13:35, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's not quite "essential," as it might not be so. While there's no question that the majority of Proper Names for stars are Arabic (or garbled Arabic), that does not prove anything in this particular case, although it might certainly be so. Now as the medieval Arabic picturing of the Bear was the same as both Ptolemy's and ours, it's odd that the name for the whole figure would be applied to just a part of it, but odder things have, indeed, happened. Therefore I am noting your point in the article.
What's really peculiar is the name for η UMa. One might expect the star delineating the Bear's nose to be designated "The Leader," not the one at the tip of the tail. (It probably has to do with the brightness of the star, not its location.) B00P (talk) 06:23, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment. Maybe it is advisable to talk about Orion's stars in the Orion article but please allow me to list the following translations: BetelGeuse or Beetlejuice is Beit-Ul-Kaws, the bow's house. Al-Nitaq means the arrow outfit or the Strap. Al-Rigel means the Leg. Al-Saiph means the Sword. Al-Mintaqa is the tail of the leather belt. Meissa and Bellatrix are also Arabic specific hunting outfit vocabulary but the question is why the Arabic names survived to modern days astronomy and could that be compared to the medical and chemical vocabulary survival?

Noureddine (talk) 15:00, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

The proper place for the etymology of star names is within the articles on the individual stars themselves. (As it so happens, the etymologies are already included.)
Reconsidering your original point, you would have us believe that a bad transliteration of an Arabic term - common for star names - just happened to turn into a meaningful (and appropriate) term in English. When Europe absorbed Arabic star-lore in the Renaissance, the vast majority of scientific works were written in Latin, while the main point of contact was in Spain. Yet your thesis is that the term went directly from Arabic to English, "The Big Dipper" being meaningless in either Latin or Spanish. Further, it is not even English English, where the formation is called "The Plough," but American English. In sum, your suggestion is dubious, to say the least.
And, by the way, "Bellatrix" is not Arabic for anything - it is Latin, meaning "female warrior" or "Amazon."
B00P (talk) 20:53, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fiction

DreamGuy excised everything but the Biblical reference in the "Other" subsection, with the explanation that "fiction does not belong here."

I disagree and have reverted. The entire "Names and Lore" section is a record of various imaginative appellations given to this figure. As should be clear, there is no "real" or "official" name for the grouping. In this context, mention of the "Valacirca," for example, is just as valid as the other unusual terms. B00P (talk) 19:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)