Talk:Bermondsey Abbey

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Founded in 1082 or 1089?

The information is confusing. Clearly a church existed at the earlier date, 1082, and this was settled by the Cluniacs and hence referred to in Domesday as "the new ... church" ie 1086. Rufus' connection is in regard to major land grants. I am of the view that not all landed granted by the king was his directly, but held in reversionary title, and gifts to the church would be in mortmain so extinguishing his title. Therefore, the king's consent would be required to give the land to the church. 79.75.2.246 (talk) 13:25, 22 April 2008 (UTC) (Tony S)

Nortonius' edits in early May 2008 make the whole article much better and help clarify the early foundation issue. However, I would suggest returning the reference to the Ailwyn/ Aylwin dynasty and the City of London. 79.75.124.232 (talk) 13:06, 14 May 2008 (UTC) (Tony S)

Thanks for the compliments! I think I see what you mean about "returning the reference to the Ailwyn/ Aylwin dynasty and the City of London" - sorry if I've removed something, I thought I was being careful not to, but could you be specific about what it is? I think the reference you're referring to as removed is in this passage, e.g. in an edit by 79.75.2.246, of 22 April 2008:

The church may have been the original gift of one Aylwin 'Cild' an Englishman who also gave properties in London to support the St Charite house at Cluny, in or before 1082

The thing is, I wonder if this information isn't covered by the present passage:

Alwinus Child's only recorded gift to the new monastery was 'various rents in the city of London', and these may be represented in Domesday Book by mention of 13 burgesses there paying 44d (£0.18) annually to the estate at Bermondsey.

Also by the citation after the first occurrence of "Alwinus Child" in the article, in which the significance of his name is explained; by the paragraph mentioning the "arrival in 1089 of four monks from St. Mary's of La Charité-sur-Loire"; and by the discussion of the name Alwinus in the reference given at the end of the sentence mentioning his "only recorded gift". That was my intention (and note the lower case "c" I've used in "city": I'm sure it's reasonable to distinguish the city referenced here from the modern "City of London", as it's all there was of London in 1086). But if the earlier version of this passage was actually referring to some other piece of information, then I'd say sorry, that wasn't clear (e.g. your mention of a "dynasty"), and certainly my edit has lost sight of it - I'd be delighted if that were so, and if it were to be put back, with citations! Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 14:15, 14 May 2008 (UTC)