Talk:Bensonhurst, Brooklyn
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This article is part of WikiProject New York City, an effort to create, expand, and improve New York City-related articles to Wikipedia feature-quality standard. Bulletin: The next New York City meetup is Sunday June 1st. |
| Start | This article has been rated as start-Class on the quality scale. |
| Mid | This article has been rated as mid-importance on the importance scale. |
I have edited the page to the best of my ability. The previous text was in my opinion an absolute disgrace. It told nothing about the area but focused on the criminal acts and was decidely a biased piece of conjecture. As a fourth generation resident of Bensonhurst I was appalled by its references and felt it necessary to edit it. Dated 1/7/2005
--Understandable, but it's foolish to simply ignore some key points brought up in the original article. Perhaps the Yusef Hawkins case was a bit overstressed, but completely downplaying the incident as well as the traditional Italian nature of the neighborhood is misleading to anyone viewing the article who is not familiar with Brooklyn. I do not know the neighborhood's official ethnic/ancestral demographics (I've found websites claiming 65% Italian at the time of Hawkins' murder,) but even if the neighborhood is 'diverse' as you have said, common historical conceptions of Bensonhurst as portrayed in film and media shouldn't be ignored to make some statement as a longtime resident. If, for example, someone came to Wikipedia curious about Bensonhurst from its portrayal in the film 25th Hour, or Wikipedia's own East Haven article, they would find very little elucidation, and truly little more than a tourists brochure. Editors of this article have a responsibility to present a balanced depiction of Bensonhurst based on objective information like demographic statistics as well as common conceptions and historical stereotypes of the neighborhood (while acknowledging the nature of these assertions) to paint a coherent picture for someone who may have no familiarity whatsoever with the neighborhood. A simple google search brought me to a website presenting information on New York neighborhoods, and though clearly spun in a positive light, managed to say the following about Bensonhurst:
"The neighborhood has traditionally been Italian and Jewish with few other ethnic groups. In 1989, Yusef Hawkins, a African-American inquiring about a used car, was killed by a group of 30 youths." (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/7589/neighborhoods2.htm)
The kid was killed by thirty neighborhood residents, and furthermore it was perhaps the source of the greatest national attention ever received by Bensonhurst, sparking far-reaching public debate on contemporary American race relations. Clearly, despite your evident desire to defend your neighborhood, there is good reason to include the Hawkins incident.
In addition, the following sentences: "They are generally well kept and provide an excellent resale value. This is a testament to the area whose value remains steadfast. The area also boasts an excellent public school district. " clearly sacrifice objectivity in favor of your evident bias. If you could prevent more concrete information regarding these issues (average property values, educational awards,) it might be acceptable for an encyclopedia, but as it stands I will remove it in favor of more objectively presented information. Other reverted information is entirely objective (e.g. the Segal film shot in the neighborhood,) or acknowledged as stereotype or conjecture (e.g. Dyker Heights as a Mafia area,) and I strongly believe it should remain.--AS 01.12.05
I have no desire to be a participant in an editorial battle of wills with an obvious bigot. Your reference of thirty people being murderers removes you from the realm of any serious credibility. Your bias toward Italo- Americans is menacing and you have chosen to leave it exposed in this forum and it is your right to do so. Again , there will be no further editing nor will there be any response whatsoever to from me regarding any discussion related material. Your socioeconomic rant is out of context in a tool designed to inform not misguide. There is enough intolerance & bigotry in the world without your distasteful, misinformed and sad commentary.
Contents |
[edit] No mention of the murder?
I don't know (or much care) what the rationale for deleting the information about the infamous Bensonhurst murder of a young black man was, but it should be reinstated in some form or fashion. The fat is the name "Bensonhurst" is synonymous in many people's minds with that tragedy, Bensonhurst being a classic example of the kind of anti-black animous that exists in many working-class, white, ethnic neighborhoods in the nation. It is something burned into the collective memory of the nation -- at least of those of us who are old enough to remember it.
That's like writing an article about Chicago and omitting mention of the Great Chicago Fire. It's something that -- for better or for worse -- put Bensonhurst in the news and on the map of the collective psyche of the nation. After all, there's a reason Spike Lee chose Bensonhurst for "Jungle Fever." User: deeceevoice April 13, 2007
Response: I'm half-italian and a Bay Ridge native. I'm profoundly insulted that you would even suggest bigotry as a motivation for my editorial reversion (note: I was not the original creator of this article. The only thing I added was information on the increasing Chinese presence,) and given that I had little to do with the actual composition of this article, you should be directing these slanderous, ill-founded accusations at the original contributors. I had and still have no intention whatsoever of turning this into "an editorial battle of wills," and I feel I explained myself clearly enough to justify a reversion while still retaining a good part of what you had written. You have stepped over the line of decency and respect with your response, throwing around accusations of "obvious" prejudice when there are no references negative or positive to Italian-American culture in my response. My focus was entirely on your choice to simply trash a longstanding article that seems to have tapped some deep rooted insecurities of yours, in favor of--to be candid--poorly written, uninformative, highly biased and emotionalized fluff. I made a genuine effort to reconcile your concerns with the historical reality of the neighborhood, but you still lashed out at me as though this article is some denunciation of italian-american culture. The beauty of Wikipedia is that it provides this discussion page to allow for respectful, positive dialogue. In regards to this article, you have failed to live up to these standards and have eschewed any hint of journalistic credibility. The appropriate way to go about airing your grievances would have been DIRECTLY ADDRESSING problems you found in the original article and working for compromise by thouroughly explaining issue you took with specific references and proposing alternatives. You, instead, opted to speak in generalities and contribute nothing productive.
"Your reference of thirty people being murderers removes you from the realm of any serious credibility," is your only attempt to directly address something I've said, and it fails to make any clear sense. I referred to thirty neighborhood residents being involved in the crime to defend the importance of including the incident in this article. If it were an isolated incident involving a non-neighborhood resident that just happened to take place in Bensonhurst, it would be a different case altogether, but the number of residents involved and the subsequent media attention to the area justifies its inclusion. I also didn't refer to them as 'murderers,' but the US Judicial system has deemed it so and I don't see how this in any way affects my credibility.
Furthermore, I can't for the life of me find any 'socioeconomic rant,' and I haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about. It seems you are mistaken in that regard.
If members of the Wikipedia community were to go about erasing any article (especially one presented with such balance as this) that touched a personal nerve in favor of what seems like a description you would send to a friend over email, the substance and value of this website would be lost. I suggest you reevaluate your motives, and the legitimacy of your claims before you go about making such changes in the future. You should also consider how you engage in dialogue with people on public forums such as this, as you have been incredibly rude and disrespectful with no foundation or support. AS--
I would compare this article with the Howard Beach article. Howard Beach was the site of an infamous racial incident (the inspiration for Spike Lee's "Do the Right Thing") and also considered a "mob haven." The article mentions these things, but does not dwell on them.
I would suggest reediting the Benson hurst article in the same manner. --Amcalabrese 05:32, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)--69.214.219.203 05:31, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Yusef or Yusuf?
Maybe this ist hairsplitting, but I think the boy killed in Bensonhurst in 1989 was called Yusuf Hawkins, not Yusef. At least that is what his tombstone says.
http://www.nyc24.org/2000/issue03/story03/memorial1.html
[edit] My Famous People List
I included a famous people list to Bensonhurst, but of them, Danny Devito seems to be from New Jersey. He was born there and attended a high school in NJ, so I would assume that he should be removed from the list. Check and see if I'm right.--Screwball23 talk 01:03, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Organized Crime in Bensonhurst
The Italian Mafia was actually huge in Bensonhurst quite some time ago. I know nothing about how it is now, but it definitely has the Mafia in it's roots. Sammy the bull Gravano even says in his book Underboss that Bensonhurst was "prime spawning ground" for Cosa Nostra. Just as well, lots of wiseguys lived in this neighborhood, and conducted business there. People like Sammy Gravano, Joseph Columbo, Joseph Profaci, and more. You should talk about this on the page and not say that this neighborhood never had anything to do with organized crime, etc. This is supposed to be accurate information, not misleading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.226.197.197 (talk) 21:47, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Pop culture refs are not trivial here
The lists that got a "Trivia sections are discouraged" tag from one of the Wikipedia PKers are an excellent example of how stupid and counterproductive that policy is. Those lists add a lot of color to the article, and also comprise useful Google juice.
Lists like these are one of the easiest parts of articles for Wikinoobs to contribute to, since they don't need to worry about the structure of the article, they just need to plug in stuff they know about.
Antitrivia tags should be disregarded, and lists like these expanded.
76.28.193.251 03:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for contributing nothing to this discussion. Angrymansr (talk) 14:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
