Talk:Benjamin Franklin/Archive 1

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Contents

First post 20:18 May 13, 2003 (UTC)

Max Weber quotes Franklin as the originator of the famous quote "Time is money" (in some form or other), is this correct? (Will look up the source.) Nixdorf 20:18 May 13, 2003 (UTC)

"Remember that time is money"
Benjamin Franklin Advice to a Young Tradesman
Source: http://greenwich2day.com/fun-n-fact/timequotes.htm
MB 20:29 May 13, 2003 (UTC)
Cool! Thanks. Nixdorf 21:57 May 13, 2003 (UTC)

I don't think the information about fabricated anti-Semitism belongs in this article. These claims are little-known and rarely brought up, and out of place in an article about Benjamin Franklin. Perhaps a single sentence would be acceptable, but two paragraphs and five links is not. Given that very similar content was added to George Washington, this strikes me as an attempt by someone with an axe to grind to seek out all anti-Semitic fabricated quotes on the net and then attack their purveyors in the encyclopedia in the guise of "defending" historical figures against charges of anti-Semitism. Furthermore, it's simply inaccurate to say his image has been "tarnished" by claims of anti-Semitism, as almost no one has heard of these claims. --Delirium 03:44 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Your claims are incorrect. These farbricated quotes are very widely distributed in books, journals, pamplets and on many websites, as well as in many Usenet newsgroup postings. I can't imagine how you can claim otherwise. You really do need to do some serious research on this well-known topic. RK 20:13 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Here's the removed part:
In recent years Franklin's image has been tarnished by anti-Semites who attempt to use his name to further their goals. Many anti-Semitic Arab and Neo-Nazi books, journals and websites offer forged "quotes" supposedly by America's founding fathers, especially George Washington and Benjamin Franklin. These supposed quotes have been debunked as forgeries by historians.

RK - you are the one making a claim. It's simply inaccurate to say his image has been "tarnished" by claims of anti-Semitism, as almost no one has heard of these claims. Pizza Puzzle

I still hold the position that those sections should be removed completely from both articles. It's kind of sad that extremists have such a large say in the final makeup of articles, that is until they become officially "controversial". 212.127.141.173 03:02 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)

First Postmaster General?

If its undocumented, how do you know about it? ChessPlayer 02:18, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC) I have a question to JB. If Benjamin Franklin was supposedly a playboy, then would'nt he have to be able to walk. I have been studying Ben and from what I have heard he was a fairly... well actually a very large fellow who could not walk and had to be carried around every where. so how would he have many lovers if he could not do anything with them?

FC

Jefferson #2 and Franklin #3 or Franklin #2 and Jefferson #3??

The honored Americans section of Talk:George Washington says that Thomas Jefferson has an honor rank of #2 and Benjamin Franklin has an honor rank of #3. However, something began to make me think that it is also possible that Franklin is #2 and Jefferson is #3. Which is correct?? (Go to the Talk:George Washington page to find out how an honor rank is defined.) 66.32.94.195 00:34, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

other inventions?

On this page [1], they also list "Armonica", a musical instrument invented by Franklin. They also credit him for first mapping the Gulf Stream. Samohyl Jan 11:36, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Franklin's birth place

Where on Milk St. was Franklin born? I currently work not very far from there.

Anti-revolutionary

The "Later years" section was ended with one of those "it is not generally known that" pragraphs that so often get plunked into an article by someone unwilling to work his contrarian view properly into the text. I've toned down the pugnacious wording, but really it doesn't belong here at all. Meanwhile, as to

Even as late as 1780, Franklin was willing to allow British sovereignty in return for large degrees of home rule.

Does anyone know what this refers to? Is it a reasonable statement of the facts? It has a seriously exaggerated sound, given the attitude he took toward his English friends, not to mention his coauthorship of the Declaration; but does anyone know? --Dandrake 23:10, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

After waiting nearly two weeks for anyone to come to the support of that strange unsupported assertion, I'm zapping it. In fact, out goes the whole paragraph, which, though reworded to be true, doesn't fit here anyway. --Dandrake 23:21, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

picture

Can't we use Duplessis' painting itself? Greuze is greuzy. WB2 07:34, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Birthdate

Franklin's birthdate is given first as January 17, 1706, and a few paragraphs down in the article as January 6 of the same year. Presumably these are new style and old style, respectively, but that isn't specified and there are numerous other unspecified dates also. Shouldn't the dates should be made consistent and specified n.s. or o.s.? -EDM 21:43, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Refrigeration

The following paragraph needs, at least, serious editing of its claimed facts. If nothing is forthcoming (a citation that can be followed, citing a published document, would be nice), it will have to be removed.

Franklin deducted the principle of refrigeration by observing that on a very hot day, he stayed cooler in a wet shirt in a breeze than he did in a dry one. To understand this phenomenon more clearly Franklin conducted experiments. On one warm day in Cambridge England in 1758, Franklin and fellow scientist John Hadley experimented by continually wetting the ball of a mercury thermometer and allowing it to evaporate. With each subsequent evaporation, the thermometer read a colder degree of temperature. Another thermometer showed the room temperature to be constant at 65 degrees F. The thermometer used in the experiment was brought all the way down to 7 degrees F. In his letter "Cooling by Evaporation" Franklin noted that "one may see the possibility of freezing a man to death on a warm summer's day."

Never mind the necessary copy editing. Cooling from 65F to 7F by evaporation? Of water? At 10% humidity you can get your wet-bulb temperature down to 45F, according to my handy psychrometer slide rule. Only 38 degrees to go. (And: ultra-low humidityIn London? Have you ever been in London on a warm day? It's not quite so dry as the Mojave Desert.) Doesn't matter how many times you repeat the evaporation. What's going on here? --Dandrake 07:28, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

Since no one has managed to defend this account, I'm hacking it up to at least the extent of removing outright impossibilities. --Dandrake July 2, 2005 03:34 (UTC)

I did some checking around on google and amazon, and I found a few citations indicating that he wetted the bulb of a mercury thermometer with ether and used a bellows to dry it, which produced a 58 degree drop in temperature. Check out http://www.historycarper.com/resources/twobf3/letter1.htm, which has excerpts from his letters, and go down to cooling by evaporation, there you'll see a letter Ben Franklin wrote describing the experiment -- Salsb 2 July 2005 15:59 (UTC)

Excellent sourcing, Salsb, and as a bonus the next letter in that collection, headed Faith, Hope, and Charity (though having nothing whatever to do with refrigeration) gives us all a fine example of Franklin's sense of humor. -EDM 2 July 2005 16:52 (UTC)


Liberalist

User:Roylee added a description of one of Ben's views. I think the quote is accurate (based on Esmond Wright's book, "Franklin, His Life as He Wrote It"), but I don't think it needs the prominence of a section in the article. We don't have the kite, lightning rod, stove or bifocals. I've copied his section here for your consideration. Roylee has also covered this material in some of the linked articles. Lou I 8 July 2005 17:34 (UTC)

Removed text:

In 1780 Franklin wrote a letter, Progress of true science, to Joseph Priestley, perhaps his most significant (yet brief) contribution to early liberal theory. Written only 10 years prior to his death, Franklin's radical ideas predate Gene Roddenberry's popular science fiction television series Star Trek by nearly 200 years, as Franklin describes a future society which has completely overcome Earth's gravity, sickness, ageing and bigotry.
  • I agree that this section is unnecessary and disproportionate to its significance. To call that letter Franklin's most significant contribution to liberal theory is, um, overstated. Also, the ideas as described (and as stated in the Progress of true science article) predate many utopian writings, and postdate others. Of the utopian writings they predate, Star Trek is probably not the one that an encyclopedia should mention if it is only going to mention one. I second the deletion of the whole section. -EDM 8 July 2005 17:52 (UTC)

Silence Dogood

Does anyone know why the article Silence Dogood was erased from Wikipedia? I can't seem to find a vfd on it. It was a complete article, and there should have been no reason for its deletion.

Edit: Never mind, I found the deletion log for it, I'll create a re-direct to this article, as I'm not qualified to expand that article. Autopilots 20:17, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Benjamin Franklin a spy?

"sources from Pfalstad needed"? I cited my source right there in my change, under "Further Reading"... [2]: Code Number 72 / Ben Franklin: Patriot or Spy?, Cecil B. Currey, 1972, ISBN 0131394932

bibliographies

Has anybody noticed that this 'site hasn't got any bibliographies? SR

Problem solved: I added bibliographies & links Rjensen 02:19, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Franklin in Mathematics

Apparently Mr. Franklin is a great amateur mathematician as well, especially on the area of magic squares and circles:

[3] [4]

I am no mathematician, however; anyone up to write something on this? - Jeekc 04:19, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Why is Ben Great?

I briefly explain BF's world historical importance in the opening papragraph, and cleaned up the bibliography some. Rjensen 04:26, 5 December 2005 (UTC)


Boston Latin School graduate?

As Kzollman pointed out in his last edit summary, the Boston Latin School website claims Franklin as a graduate. But the article says he left school at 10 and at 12 apprenticed to his brother. Can those both be correct? -EDM 19:47, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

You're right. Boston Latin's own site claims [5] Franklin only as a "pupil", not a grad. And it's a very common mistake to jump from "alum" to "graduate"; Syracuse University claims Stephen Crane as an alum even though he attended only a single semester, and admitted that he came just to play baseball. Incidentally, the site shown in the edit summary is a "Boston Public Schools" site, not Boston Latin's site. -- Mwanner | Talk 20:28, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Okay, my mistake. This site says that BF was taking out of Boston Latin (then called something else) because it was too expensive. He attended another school for a year and then never attended school again. Sorry folks! --best, kevin [kzollman][talk] 20:51, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

The article implies that Benjamin Franklin was not a freemason, but he really was: http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/franklin_b/franklin_b.html Al-Kadafi 18:37, 11 December 2005 (UTC)


Dates lived in London

  • I see in other sources that Franklin stayed in London from 1757-1775. This wikipedia article has him criss-crossing several times during those years. Could someone please look into this and get it straight? Thanks ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 04:23, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
    • Hmm, it seems now the other source is wrong, and he did cross back and forth a number of times during those years... But I'm still not sure what the correct dates should be... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 04:29, 19 December 2005 (UTC)


Benjamin Franklin Practiced Astrology as a Science

Theo, I backed out your change because:

  • you backed out WilliamKF's change
  • you added something about astrology in a sentence which is mostly about science and technology. all I did was move it to the end of the paragraph.
  • I moved your reference to "Poor Richard Improved" to after "Poor Richard's Almanack", to which it is related.

Your comment in the history makes no sence. I know Franklin wrote Poor Richard's; that's why I added to reference to it. Did you even look at my change? I didn't take out any of your astrology stuff; I even added to it. All I did was move it around. Pfalstad 03:21, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Astrology was practiced as a science, and a technology by Franklin. What do you call weather forecasting using astrology? This was practiced by Franklin. It was not so "minor" interest as is entered in this treatment. Let the true record reflect this fact, and not some personal POV treatment. That does not reflect the true record. As long as it is recongized that Ben Franklin, was not only interested in "astrology stuff" but practiced it as well. I read his personal & professional materials in Philadelphia and his copius writings on, and his practice of, astrology, is well documented. He was more than "interested" in astrology Pfalstad. I am well-versed on Benjamin Franklin. I was born & raised in Philadelphia, and lived in the same neighboor he did two hundred years before. Franklin's astrological works are copius.Theo 03:35, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Calendar format?

What calendar is used for the dates in this article? Several fall before the switch to Gregorian in 1752 (see this part specifically).

Music

I've heard that Benjamin Franklin was quite a prolific musician, teaching himself violin, harp and guitar (as well as possibly composing a string quartet) in addition to inventing the glass harmonica. I see no mention of this though, and perhaps someone more learned than I am in this area could elaborate.

Music

Having played the harmonica, I was interested in your (and others)listing of the harmonica as among his inventions. I happened to visit the National Constitution Center today in Philadelphia and learned that the instrument Franklin invented was in fact the "armonica", sans the "h", which was a horizontal graduated row of pitched crystal discs which were spun in a lathe-like fashion and played with moistened finger tips producing tones similar to those made by running one's finger tip around the edge of one's wine glass at the dinner table. he used to sing in the choir with my great great great grandfather and he acctually passed downa story in which tehy did a solo!!

Masons

Franklin became a Mason at age 25 (the order's minimum age); this was in January of 1730 (old style, when the new year began in March) or 1731 by the modern calendar. The date is known, but the article suggests some uncertainty.

He was made Grand Master (of Pa.) in June 1734 (not 1735), as can be shown from letters in the Labaree edition of the Papers, vol. 1, pp. 374-77.

Dr. Thomas Bond

There was a link for Dr. Thomas Bond on BF's page that led to the actor Tommy Bond. I've removed the link as it's inappropriate. Seems like a new stub, plus a disambiguation page is needed. As a noob, I'm not sure how to make that happen. Anyone wanna step up to the plate? I could add a little bit of info on Dr. Thomas Bond once the stub's up. yah yuh..

Add Smithsonian link?

Hello! I am a writer for the Smithsonian's Center for Education, which publishes Smithsonian in Your Classroom, a magazine for teachers. An online version of an issue titled "Making Friends with Franklin" is available for free at this address:

http://www.smithsonianeducation.org/educators/lesson_plans/franklin/start.html

If you think the audience would find this valuable, I wish to invite you to include it as an external link. We would be most grateful.

Thank you so much for your attention.

Franklin and Deism

I was surprised that there has been no mention in the article of Franklin's view on religion. May be interesting to note, esp. since there's a perception that every white person had to be Christian in those days.

I am using the Perhaps a single sentence would be acceptable editing guideline for the fabricated quote. Ancheta Wis 08:00, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Writings

While I didn't add "Fart Proudly: Writings of Benjamin Franklin You Never Read in School," to this article originally, I see no reason for it to be deleted - and the changing reasons of User:Mwanner are certainly not convincing (first it's vandalism, now it's not encyclopedic enough). As long as these writings were written by Franklin (I see no evidence it was a hoax), then they should be included. We can't exclude writings just because we don't approve of their content. | Keithlaw 17:35, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Suggestion-- do a google search, and read the reviews (hint: not the ones on pages where the book is for sale). Granted, when I first deleted this, I thought it was pure vandalism from the title. After you restored it, I looked at what was out there about it, and decided it looked like fluff-- not worth including. I have nothing against the content (I have been known to fart on ocassion myself, and with gladness). I just felt that the book didn't warrant inclusion. -- Mwanner |Talk 17:44, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
I have removed the reference again, shown here for easy reinsertion.
  • "Fart Proudly: Writings of Benjamin Franklin You Never Read in School." Carl Japikse, Ed. Frog Ltd.; Reprint ed. May, 2003. ISBN 1583940790
I would suggest reading [6] before re-adding. Also, full text for the original Fart Proudly is at [7]. If anyone re-adds, I won't revert ('though I'll hold my nose). -- Mwanner | Talk 19:19, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
It's still in the article, and I didn't re-add it. Mwanner, I agree that it's not among Mr. Franklin's finest works, and I wouldn't have added it myself. But he did write it, and I didn't see the compelling reason to delete it once someone else took the time to add it (and to add it correctly, with ISBN). Had it been a hoax, or a satire of Franklin, I would have agreed with you. But as long as the information is valid, more is generally better for Wikipedia, in my opinion. If Mr. Franklin didn't want it in his Wikipedia article, he never should have written it in the first place! | Keithlaw 22:14, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Hmmm, OK, now I have removed it again. I think, really, what bothers me about listing this is twofold. One, it seems to me that the purpose of the compilation is not scholarly; it was published to titillate. I don't think we need list every work ever written on an historical figure. Admittedly, though, the fact that it is material that was written by Franklin makes my claim weaker.
The other reason I'd like this omitted is simply that I spend so much of each day removing the "titties" and "penises", etc., etc., added by 4th graders that the idea of having a legitimate entry on farting, especially in a vandalism target like the Franklin article, sets my teeth on edge. But as I said before, if it goes in again, I'll leave it in.
Cheers! -- Mwanner | Talk 22:57, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I previously entered the audiobook external link "Dialogue Between Franklin and the Gout". On consideration-- two things, I want to replace the text of LiteralSystems.com with a simple "Creative Commons audiobook", but I would just as well remove this link altogther (if I could) because it doesn't really represent an important example of BJ's writings.--Literalsystems 19:19, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Fart proudly is extremely relevant to Franklin as it is another insight into his mind. He is a very funny guy and a universal genius. Nemesis1981