Talk:Ben Goldacre

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More information about this article... The following comments have been left for this page: I'm not sure that it makes much sense to list Mr Goldacre in the same selection of alumni as St. Thomas Moore, even if he did get a first in his degree. Although this is certainly a worthwhile article perhaps there could be some discriminatory groupings of alumni lest the number of alumni grow beyond control (I know several people who are well worth an entry on the page if Mr. Goldacre is). I don't intend this as a swipe at Mr. Goldacre, who is an excellent journalist and entertaining writer. (edit)

Relating to earlier questions about whether Ben Goldacre is really a doctor etc, he is currently registered with the General Medical Council and anyone is able to check a doctor's registration on their website

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Just to point out that Goldacre really does use a picture of Frankenstein's Monster as his byline pic, incase anyone assumes it's vandalism and is tempted to edit it. FrFintonStack 15:27, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 "With some success" 2 Qualifications 3 CND 4 Fair Use image 5 His request for donations

[edit] "With some success"

"...and with some success: for example, McKeith has stopped calling herself a "doctor" on Channel 4, and Penta have ceased trading in the United Kingdom, under investigation from various bodies." - are there any sources for these being a direct result of Goldacre's columns? --McGeddon 21:34, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, this superstitious sentence of the article has now been removed, but if anyone does know of a direct connection, please add it back with sources. --McGeddon 10:59, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

McKeith has stopped calling herself Dr in her advertising literature, and this is reported as being the result of a complaint to the ASA by one of Goldacre's readers, so I've added this info with citation. Aretnap 21:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Qualifications

When we say he is a "doctor," what do we mean exactly? Is he employed as a physician, and if so, where? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

The Biog on his blog says he works full time for the NHS, and in his newspaper article of 12 today he describes himself as a junior doctor. Aretnap 21:48, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes he is a physician in London. --PaulWicks 08:36, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Do we have sources for his background? Here, for example, he says he has a master's in philosophy from King's College, London, but with no mention of any further medical training. It would be good to pin it down with good sources, and to say where he works as a physician; to say that he works "for the NHS" doesn't really tell us anything. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 08:56, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1510223,00.html says near the end "Ben Goldacre is a medical doctor". That's the Guardian newspaper saying that, not some quack on their personal web site. Here is a paper he co-authored, apparently from his stint with fMMR at the University of Milan. Phaedrus86 10:47, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Slim given the enmity shown towards Ben on some recent articles I'm not inclined to delve particularly deep into where he works. However if it makes you feel any better I will say that I know for a fact he is a medic in London, working for the NHS. --PaulWicks 13:08, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Paul, we can't base an article on your personal knowledge: see WP:NOR. It would be good to pin down what his actual qualifications are, and where he works as a physician, particularly as he's being used extensively as a WP source about a living person, and part of his complaint about that person is that the history of her academic qualifications is unclear. It would be unusual for someone with no background in philosophy to be allowed to do an M.A. in it at King's College, London, as his CV on that website seems to claim; or perhaps the website means he has an M.Phil (master of philosophy rather than master's in philosophy), but then why wouldn't it say which subject? It's an oddly worded CV, as anyone who knows the British education system will have noticed; for example, it mentions that one of the degrees was "British Academy funded," which only means a government grant, and that's not unusual. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:21, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Ben Goldacre has had articles published in the BMJ. They're fairly careful about publishing work by impostors and frauds. Anyway, I'm sure if someone were to email Ben (an address is provided at badscience.net) the man himself could provide links to credible independent sites that would verify his qualifications, only someone more forward than me will have to do it.Jamrifis 22:45, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

the history of her academic qualifications is unclear Firstly, the history of her qualifications is a matter of record, so the history of his is irrelevant in this respect. Secondly, his awards are qualifications in themselves in that he received them for a large body of work that is publicly accessible. I would say that it is obvious on the available easily accessible evidence that his writing is regarded as first class. His writing is what he is notable for, and his writing is what the article is there for. He does not assert or imply that we should believe his statements because he is academically qualified, and in fact the Guardian does not even bother stating his qualifications any more. His articles mount arguments that are credible in themselves and on the sources he quotes from time to time. It is ridiculous to compare him to a charlatan. Phaedrus86 23:02, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) "If anyone wanted to check my degrees, memberships, or affiliations, then they could call up the institutions, and get instant confirmation: job done. If you said I wasn’t a doctor, I wouldn’t sue you; I'd roar with laughter." - [1] Andy Mabbett 23:07, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of anyone's personal opinion of Goldacre, the point is that we don't know what his qualifications are, and it would be good to know them, especially when he seems to have a postgraduate degree in philosophy but not an undergraduate one, which would be very unusual; and given that he highlights something very ordinary (a British Academy grant) on his CV as though it's something special, which is what he accuses his bête noire, Gillian McKeith, of having done in another context. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

His pg degree is an MPhil not an MA. An MPhil, like a PhD, does not have to be in philosophy - I assume you've read Master of Philosophy. I don't know of any institution that awards "Master's of..." rather than "Master of" in the UK, so I don't know where you're going with that. See Masters degree. And people who receive grants from the British Academy namecheck the their funding source as a matter of course. I don't see where you're going with that either? Hypnotist uk 23:47, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I do see where you're going now, at least with the first part (and I was overconfident - he could well have done an MA or even an MSc from KCL); I'm not convinced, though, it matters whether he gained a master of philosophy or a masters in philosophy. There'd almost certainly be no need for him to do undergrad philosophy if he studied philosophy of science for example... Of course, we could always ask him. Hypnotist uk 00:13, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

we don't know what his qualifications are - Yes we do Andy Mabbett 23:48, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The "of" refers to the title of the degree; the "in" refers to the subject studies. For example, an engineering student could get a Bachelor of Engineering, or a Bachelor of Science in Engineering. A music student could get a Bachelor of Music or a Bachelor of Arts in Music. My understanding is that an MA from Oxford is not something you study for; it's something awarded by Oxford University to its own graduates after a number of years, on payment of an administrative fee. A Master's degree by examination or thesis from Oxford (or Cambridge) would be an MPhil, or MLitt, or MRes, or MSc, or some other M., but not an MA. Goldacre's website says he has a Master's degree in Philosophy; it doesn't give the title of that degree. In any case, I think it would be unusual to have a postgraduate degree in philosophy without an undergraduate one. ElinorD 00:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Ignore part of that post. For some reason, I didn't take in that his master's was from KCL, and therefore I wrote some rather irrelevant things about the Oxford MA. My apologies. ElinorD (talk) 19:31, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I do actually have both 'real' and 'upgraded' Masters degrees from Cambridge. FWIW I paid no fee to turn my BA into an MA. In any case Goldacre has his Masters from KCL, which does not offer this kind of 'upgrade'. I also do not see why it would be unusual to have a postgrad in philosophy without an undergrad one - consider philosophy of science, for starters. Hypnotist uk 00:26, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Andy, it's not clear what the CV on his blog means. Normally in a biography, we say A obtained his B.A. in X in 1990; his M.A. in Y in 1994; and his Ph.D. in Z in 1997 from such-and-such an institution. We have none of those details with Goldacre. We don't know which degree he obtained from Oxford; maybe he left after the B.A. (which would be unusual in medicine). When did he do his M.A. in philosophy? Has he actually completed his medical studies? Which degrees does he have? Where is he employed as a physician? There's a distinct lack of detail in his CV.

Hypnotist, I don't understand your post. How do you know his degree is an M.Phil? That's not what the website said; it said he has a master's in philosophy. And I don't know anyone who would mention on their CV that the British Academy gave them a grant, because it's not a big deal. It's very strange to talk about a "British Academy-funded master's degree." In fact, it's particularly strange to, as it were, boast about it for a master's. It's harder to get one for a Ph.D., but to the best of my knowledge, not hard at all to get one for an M.A. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:12, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I have already retracted some of what I said; I see your point about in/of, but not really why you find it a problem. Also, note he would be doing the masters degree as a postdoc. Indeed it is hard to get one for a PhD: "Rather, they must show that they are seeking support for advanced research at postdoctoral level (or equivalent). PhD candidates are not eligible to apply" [2]. Hypnotist uk 00:17, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, they certainly used to be, and although it wasn't easy, it wasn't that hard either, and MAs were very much easier. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:31, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

So where are we? His own site says he works full time for the NHS. The Guardian has the same details of his qualifications as his site [3]. The University of Leicester calls him Dr, and says "In his own words, Dr Ben Goldacre is a 'scientist, doctor, and guardian columnist, who reads every paper every day, has seen how the media works from the inside, and who gets into big fights about it with humanities graduate journalists at parties.'"[4]. So. Are there any WP:V sources that even come close to questioning his qualifications? Nobody has posted any. I don't know why there's a seeming drive to do WP:OR here (going by WP:AGF - I could speculate...) but we do have a fair few credible sources calling him a doctor and talking about his work and his academic background, and we have nothing calling that into question. So why is this even under discussion? Hypnotist uk 01:48, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

But Hypnotist, this is supposed to be a biography and we don't know what his qualifications are or where he works. Does he have a B.A. from Oxford, or a B.M, B.Ch, and if the latter isn't from Oxford, where is it from and when did he get it; or an M.D., which I doubt, but it's possible, and if so, from where and when? And when did he get his master's in phil? It's odd that he offers none of this information on his online CV, particularly as his current big thing is to criticize someone else for being a bit murky about dates and institutions. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:31, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, I don't believe he's criticising others for being murky about dates and institutions - he's rather more specific than that. Secondly, even if he was, that has nothing to do with the biographical information in article. Thirdly, it seems to me that he's being quite clear in the information he does and doesn't want publicly stated - can I remind you of WP:BLP#Presumption_in_favor_of_privacy? Fourthly the bios are quite clear in any case: he graduated from Oxford with a first. Since he's 32, and most British students enter university at 18, that means he would have been at Oxford 1992-1995. His first would have been a BA in Medical Sciences. It's also clear (from the article!) that he then went on to do his clinical medicine at UCL, where he got his doctorate. As I said below there are numerous sources repeating that he studied at Oxford and then at UCL and is now a qualified doctor working in the NHS. Yes, there are a few pieces of uncertainty but that's because there are no sources stating his exact CV - and by WP:BLP and WP:NOR, if they ain't there, we ain't allowed to fill in the holes. He's entitled to whatever privacy he wishes. Hypnotist uk 01:47, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

There's no indication at all that he has a doctorate. I've looked to see whether he details his qualifications anywhere and he doesn't that I can see; and I'm pretty sure that if he mentions having a British Academy-funded master's, which really isn't a big deal, he'd say if he had a doctorate. I'm not suggesting we fill in the holes. I'm only making the point that there's a hint of the pot calling the kettle black. He has furnished the public with an incomplete and unclear CV — which has led you to form the impression, for example, that he has a doctorate when he may not — but then he accuses others of having done the same, with great vitriol, as though it's a hanging offense. I know there are important differences between the two cases; I'm not suggesting complete parity. But I'm suggesting there's a distinct similarity. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:05, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm trying hard to WP:AGF here but this is ridiculous. Thank you for the edit - I'm more comfortable assuming good faith with the updated version. Anyway, the rest of my comment pre-edit conflict: Doesn't have a doctorate? He is a doctor, he is called a doctor by: The Guardian, The University of Leicester, the Natural History Museum[5], the ESRC[6], the BBC[7] and the DTI[8]. And that's just from a few minutes with google. As far as I know, nobody is going to the ASA to claim he's not a doctor, either. I've asked already, but I will ask again: what possible evidence do you have for doubting his doctorate? Is there any one single source you can quote that might call it into question? And if you find the idea that he's a real doctor that hard to believe, why don't you ring up UCL and ask - as he has already challenged any doubters to do? (And finally, can I remind you that WP:BLP applies to talk pages as well...) Hypnotist uk 02:27, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Not all physicians have doctorates, Hypnotist. In the UK, physicans who have bachelor's degrees are allowed to call themselves "doctor," but it's just an honorary thing; it doesn't mean they are Doctors of Medicine, which in the UK is a doctorate i.e. a research degree equivalent to a Ph.D. Anyway, this is a little off-topic for the page. We should really only be discussing the contents of the article. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 04:11, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok, we're talking at cross-purposes. I doubt he has a (UK) MD or a PhD; I'm using 'doctorate' as shorthand for the qualifications necessary to become a qualified medical doctor, a la the US model. This certainly gives him the right to call himself 'Dr' which was the point I was making (honorary title or not, the meaning in this context is pretty clear). I understand from the badscience forums that he's currently a Specialist registrar. As for your last comment: that's what I've been saying all along! We need verifiable sources questioning his qualifications, otherwise we should let this lie. Hypnotist uk 11:12, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Look, for whatever reason Slimvirgin is a pro-McKeith supporter. It doesn't matter what evidence we bring on here, he/she is just going to try and pick pathetic holes in it anyway. My impression is that whilst, via the column, Dr. Goldacre is in the public eye, he does not run around promoting an alternative lifestyle on the basis of qualifications. Rather, he argues for balanced rationalism and critical thinking. Now do you need to be qualified to think rationally these days?!? --PaulWicks 08:46, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

SlimVirgin is neither a supporter nor an attacker of McKeith. I suppose it doesn't occur to you that someone might be acting in the interests of Wikipedia (at least as they see it) with no ulterior motive. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:31, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it would be nice to be able to discuss things without speculating on the motives and beliefs of other editors. ElinorD (talk) 20:41, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I have changed the M.A. to master's degree, as this does not state that it's an M.A. degree. It almost certainly is, as the KCL website gives details of an M.A. in philosophy for people who already have a degree in another subject, and offers an MPhil or an MPhilStud in philosophy to those who already have an undergraduate degree in Philosophy. We don't know when he did it; it's possible that there may have been other postgraduate philosophy degrees available, which are now discontinued, or that there's some other possible qualification that I just didn't find when looking briefly at the KCL website.

In any case, while I don't doubt that he has a master's, unless we have a verifiable source saying that it's a Master's in Arts, we shouldn't state as a fact that it is. ElinorD (talk) 20:41, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for looking that up, Elinor. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:21, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, he appears to be the Ben Michael Goldacre listed in the records of the UK's General Medical Council. Michael Harman 195.92.168.163 12:05, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

He has confirmed to me that he is indeed the Ben Michael Goldacre of the BMC listing. He has strongly criticized Gilliam McKeith for using the title “Doctor” when she does not appear to have that qualification from an institution generally recognized as qualified to confer that title. Michael Harman

[edit] CND

"Goldacre took part in the Easter 2004 march from Trafalgar Square to AWE Aldermaston as part of a CND demonstration against Britain's investment in new nuclear weapons."

I'm not sure why this is notable, especially to the section on bad science column, and as it's unsourced I've removed it. Aretnap 21:48, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair Use image

My understanding is that we're not allowed to use fair use images of living persons, as it would not be unreasonably difficult for a Wikipedian to attend a book-signing event, lecture, etc., and take a photo, which he/she could then release under GDFL. See here, for example, and here. ElinorD 10:01, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Looks like it's all part of his penalty for daring to criticize Gillian McKeith :-) Phaedrus86 10:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

LOL. She certainly knows how to use PR to effect. It's kind of a wikipedia-gerrymander, a gerrypeida? or perhaps a wikimander? ••Briantist•• talk 10:37, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Yep. Brought very much to mind your recent reference to irony on the GMcK talk page :-) Phaedrus86 11:03, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

rotfl. I've emailed Ben to ask for a copyright free image of himself and for some more details about his qualifications. I hope I get a reply. ••Briantist•• talk 11:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

A copyright free image would be great. Thanks for doing that. The details about his qualifications would have to be in a more verifiable source than a private e-mail from him to you, though. ElinorD 11:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Quite so. In any case we have plenty of good sources for his qualifications - perhaps not to the detail some wikieditors would like, but again: WP:NOR. What does it really matter whether he has an MA or an MSc or an MPhil from KCL? He is a qualified and working doctor and we have multiple reliable sources saying so. He studied for a masters in philosophy, and likewise sources exist. OTOH, we have a grand total of zero sources calling any of this into doubt. WP:BLP says we shouldn't even think about questioning his qualifications without seriously strong sources (and some of the editors coming over from Gillian McKeith have been very active in pointing this out over there, why the double standard?). Unless a serious source comes out doubting his qualifications, I respectfully suggest we let that question rest. Hypnotist uk 13:38, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay Hypnotist, if we have "plenty of good sources for his qualifications," what are they? Tell us what his qualifications are. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:34, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

He's a qualified doctor with a first in Medical Sciences from Oxford, and his clinical studies were completed at UCL. He has a masters in philosophy from KCL. He's now a qualified doctor working in the NHS. That information can be found in plenty of places - including right here in our article. Hypnotist uk 01:53, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I was hoping that he might be able to provide a link to a detailed bio! ••Briantist•• talk 13:51, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, I applaud that you did from the POV of making wikipedia more complete! Equally though, he's quite within his rights to refuse and it would make absolutely no difference to the article if he did. I hope all editors can accept that. Hypnotist uk 13:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] His request for donations

Goldacre seems to be soliciting donations on his blog. Does anyone know what the donations are for? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:22, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Through the power of literacy: :"I’ll get a recorder and posh mic soon (nearly there), and get the website loading faster and streaming mp3 files quick after that. If someone gives me a hundred grand I’ll start a university in the Cayman Islands and you can all have a PhD." --PaulWicks 18:52, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. If he's using his blog to collect money for himself, we should be careful not to link to it unnecessarily. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:04, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm still wet behind the ears as a wikieditor, but it seems to be the majority of sources used collect money in one way or another (mainly through advertising). Could you direct me to the policy behind what you're saying please? It'd be useful for some of the other articles I'm editing. (On a general point, I'm all for diversity of sources!) Hypnotist uk 14:47, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Am I missing SlimVirgin's subtle wit here? Soliciting money? Goldacre is joking. He does that quite a lot.Jamrifis 16:40, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

How do you know he's joking? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:49, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

The paypal link is buried in an entry in the archive, and he's also asking for someone to give him a flat... He's still flogging t-shirts and his book though. I assume that's just as heinous. Hypnotist uk 18:10, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Goodness! Look at the top link on this page! Perhaps we should delete all "unnecessary" links to pages on that site? Andy Mabbett 18:34, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

WP:EL only advises against linking to sites that "primarily exist to sell products or services" or that "require payment or registration to view the relevant content". Goldacre's site is obviously doing neither of these. --McGeddon 19:17, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Do I need to point out that websites aint free, the man is an NHS Doctor for lawd's sake. "The Bad Science Amazon Store is an incredibly exciting opportunity for me to make money for webhosting fees out of your innate desire to consume knowledge. There’s an expanding list of excellent books, click here and help me pay my webhosting fees:"-from here. To take this link hunt further we'ld have to remove the links to any and all webcomics (they either sell tshirts based on the strip or have a paypal donate button on their main page) Dmanning 22:41, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

How do I know he's joking? Are you joking now? Does using my sense of humour constitute original research? Maybe we should start a section on the page about this university Goldacre's trying to open in the Caymans. Jamrifis 00:51, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Even better, maybe someone could make a userbox for those of us who want to claim we've been there? --PaulWicks 09:13, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Date of Birth? Do we have one?Most bios have at least an age. ThanxVeryscarymary 19:43, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

 24th May 1975 - you wouldn't be the "SlimVirgin" twunt with a new name by any chance ?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.56.71.113 (talk) 22:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)