Talk:Bené Roma

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[edit] Italqith

one thing i've wondered about for a long time now is: do italkim have their own dialect of hebrew (as well as the italkian language)?

Gringo300 08:20, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Not a dialect per se, but a unique manner of pronunciation, yes...more analogous to an "accent" than a "dialect"... from what I understand, it's like modern israeli hebrew with a few vowel differences, especially in the north of italy. Tomer ^TALK 21:09, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

from what i've heard and read, there are various different dialects of italian spoken in different parts of italy, and i've read that the same applies to italkian, so it seems logical that hebrew spoken by italkim would be different in different parts of italy. so far however, i know more about italian FOOD than i do the italian language. i plan to change that however. Gringo300 16:08, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, that's nice. This article tho is about the Bnei Roma, not their language. Head on over to Italqith for that. You'll notice some of your questions are answered there. And enjoy the food! :-p Tomer^talk 08:13, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Italian Hebrew is very much like that of conservative Spanish and Portuguese Jews, for example ayin as "ng" (occasionally "ny"), final tav as "d". Vav is normally "v" as in most Hebrew dialects, but can become "w" in diphthongs (as in the family name "Anaw"). Also they mostly can't pronounce "he" (hence the family name "Coen"). I don't know about any regional variations. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 15:56, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

There is one difference, though, Italkim pronounce Beth Raphe as V while Spanish and Portuguese Jews pronounce it as B. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.166.129.232 (talk) 13:21, 19 January 2007 (UTC).

Old grammars (such as Hurwitz), based on contemporary Spanish and Portuguese (and ultimately Italian) usage, distinguish between initial ayin, pronounced "ny", and final ayin, pronounced "ng". It seems likely that the "ny" pronunciation was local to Rome, where the local dialect often has "gn" where Italian has "ng": see the article on "Romanesco" on Italian Wikipedia. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 17:34, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Other general features of traditional Italian pronunciation of Hebrew are: 1. final tav pronounced as /d/; 2. in speakers in communities south of the the La Spezia-Rimini isogloss, or in those communities transplanted north of this, conservation of geminate dagesh (both features seen in the pronunciation of שבת [ʃabːad], Judeo-Romanesque [ʃabːadːe]); 3. in construct masculine plurals with male singular possessive suffix יו-, pronunciation is not [-av] but [-au]. For additional features, as well as discussion of regional variants, see: Elia S. "La pronuncia dell'ebraico presso gli Ebrei di Italia." in Scritti in memoria di F. Luzzatto. Rassegna Mensile di Israel 28 (1962): 26-30. --Jerchower 18:30, 2 December 2007 (UTC)