Talk:Belgian Shepherd Dog
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[edit] Training
The article claims that "Belgian shepherds like to please, and can over-react badly to "negative" (punishment or deterrence based) training, so they should as a rule be clicker- or reward-trained only." Does anyone have any proof that belgians normally do best with reward-only training? I ask since I know of many Malinois being successfully used in police departments, and these departments definately do not use reward-only clicker training. They use lots of reward (prey drive) when training the dogs, but they definately don't use reward-only training, the dogs are corrected quite regularly. I doubt they would be doing this if "reward-only" training was more suitable for their K9s. If noone can come up with anything in support of the article, I think it would be more accurate if the term "reward-training only" was changed to "reward-based training". Rachel24
[edit] Temperament
The link listed http://www.bsdaofgb.co.uk/bsdfaq.htm was not just amusing but also remarkably right on for the dog my family had and brings up memories as well as a few minor issues. Most articles on this kind notes that prior experience is highly recommended for the dog owner, as well as how they interact with children. The article, I feel, does not make this sufficiently clear. As nearly all of my my family's dog's (Tervueren) siblings had to be put down due to unhappy incidents, I hope this can be added in.
- Any well-documented info (not just one person's or one breeder's experience) can be added to the article. I'm not familiar with ANY tervs (and I encounter quite a few in dog agility) who've had this kind of problem and they're not noted for it in my experience.
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- I could not find hard documentation that can pass as encyclopedic on a general scale. I know the breeded changed their stock using dogs from abroad. Still, how wide spread this issue is I do not know. Breeders are unlikely to advertise that more than 9 of 10 dogs had to be put down due to unfortunate incidents. IS any statistics openly available that we could search?
The Tervuerens I have seen have all had a stange body language in that they tilt their heads sideways occationally, as if uncertain. I have never seen that in other races but as I am no expert (and Google was not helpful here) I wonder if this is an unique aspect of Tervuerens or BSDs.
- I'm around a lot of dogs of many breeds, and Tervs indeed seem to do the head tilt much more than other breeds. All dogs do it occasionally, but that does seem to be a Terv quirk in my experience. I haven't seen enough of the other BSDs to know whether they do it, too. Interesting question. Elf | Talk 8 July 2005 05:59 (UTC)
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- I claim no wide experience in dogs but have never seen this in other dogs, only in Tervuerens. What does the tilt mean? I never found an explanation. We are then at least two that have seen this phenomenon, would it be acceptable to put in a paragraph about this behavious? An explanation might give leads usable to Google on.
- All dogs do it, usually when they're trying to figure something out--seems often to be noise or sound-related, so I've heard it explained as the dog trying to get a different angle on the sound, which makes sense to me. At least one Terv I know seems to do it to people a lot ("What ARE you trying to tell me, anyway, and is there a treat associated iwthit?") I might ask around the local dog community for info on this & the problem you've reported with terv breeding. Elf | Talk 23:05, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure if I am doing this right, but I will try [[User::Antheat|Antheat]] | Talk
With regard to the bad temperament issue, it is becoming prevalent, most breeders do not want to broadcast it as they will not have people buying their dogs. The reason I know this and how you can indeed track it, is by the United Belgian Shepherd Dogs Belgian Shepherd Dog Temperament Tests which are located at: http://www.malinut.com/character/results.shtml. I have two dogs whose parents failed the tests. (I found out after the fact, too late to take them back). One has a health condition (thyroid at 4 months old) and he is very high strung. The other has problems with aggression. This can be tracked historically. I will have both of these dogs tested once they reach the appropriate age and I already know they will fail the gun shot portion and stranger approach as both are noise sensitive and do not suffer strangers to approach, even though extensively socialised, something which a dog with a stable temperament would not do. Again, this is not hearsay, these results are historically trackable. A lot of breeders will not test their dogs because they know they will fail.
Belgian Shepherds, with the exception of the Malinois, (most of which come from strong working lines and so far, many have managed to escape from the effects of show bred only lines) are gaining a reputation of being 'spooky' or 'sharp' which is not at all the temperament which they were bred to have. A working breed that herds and guards has to have a very stable, strong temperament. There is a group of breeders located in europe and one in california who are breeding working lines back into the tervuren specifically to try to deal with the bad temperament issue. These dogs have good, stable temperaments, fabulous working ability (the trackable results speak for themselves) and are good with children, cats, dogs, adults, etc. In fact, they are the epitome of the Belgian Shepherd temperament. They may not be as pretty as the show line dogs, but I'd rather have good temperament and less coat any day of the week. I've been involved with Belgian Shepherds, Tervurens specifically for 15+ years and I started in South Africa where I had a dog who could do it all and had the true Belgian Temperament, he was as rock solid a dog as any person could hope for in any situation.
[[User::Antheat|Antheat]] | Talk
[edit] Lossage by user Pharaoh Hound
On 2007-03-19 a link to what I consider a rather apt cartoon was removed by user Pharaoh Hound. Having had a Tervueren I consider the cartoon a humorous but also accurate depiction of the temperament and one that adds constructively to the understanding for the reader. I am therefore canvassing the regulars here for inclusion. Thank you. --15:42, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] !!! Please, correct this article as soon as possible !!!
I am 26yrs old, live in Belgium and I 'm training my first Mechelaar (=Flemish for Malinois) for about 2yrs now and my dad trains Mechelaars (Malinois) for almost 30yrs to compete in the Belgian Ring (the oldest and one of the hardest defense dogsport in the world!!!), more specifically the NVBK (Nationaal Verbond voor Belgische Kynologen). We were astonished when we read this article. We can not identify any of our Mechelaars (Malinois) with the characteristics discribed in this article. Especially about temprament and training method's. Is this some kind of joke? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zwanwust007 (talk • contribs) 16:17, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
--Zwanwust007 20:04, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Temperament
Note: "Most Belgian owners know that rote or pattern-based training is not the ideal for Belgians. Nor is drilling a particular activity going to prove successful. If a Belgian does something right 3 times in a row, he does not see the sense in doing it the fourth time. (This is one example, and this article is full of this nonsense!!!) On the contrary, Belgian shepherds are known for doing things over and over again, with much pleasure, to please his owner. It' s a working dog!!!! We also had a rottweiler, that's a dog who doesn't do something 3 times in a row, and I speak from my experience!!! If a Malinois doesn't do something more than 3 times right in a row, I don't think he had such a great succes in all branches of dogsport. And especially in Ringsport (NVBK, IPO, Mondioring, French ring,...) and his succes in police and army forces around the world!!! It is probably because they doesn't listen very well...what a joke. It looks to me that this article is written by a rather subjective person, who maybe had a bad experience as a result of inadequate and incompetent training methods. From my experience with Malinois, I can say that it's a very easy-trainable dog, always ready to please his owner with a wagging tail. If you have enough space, this can become a family his best friend!!! But if you want to train this dog for your protection, or to compete in ringsport, it is highly recommended to go to a dog school. Not for the dog, but for the owner, who has to learn how to train his dog correctly to avoid dangerous situations from incompetent and haughty people who think they know everything better. For example, if you want to learn your dog not to be afraid of gunshots, you are not gonna take your dog at one day and fire some shots near him. Then I can understand that your dog can over-react for some things...hello!!! And I have read such things for more than one time!!! And those people are asking why their dog is afraid of certain things!!! I hope that people don't try to place this dog in a bad light out of jealousy because this beautifull dog is so succesfull around the world.
Please write this article on a more objective base and maybe I don't erase as much I'm going to do.
From a Belgian Malinois trainer, member of the NVBK.
--Zwanwust007 12:20, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
