Talk:Beenie Man

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Biography Portal
Start This article has been rated as start-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]
This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed biographical guide to musicians and musical groups on Wikipedia.

Hm personally I think this place is VERY informitev <-I hope that is spelled rite but there are not many links if other not enof but ya kool

I don't know what the hell you think is wrong with the edited and grammatically corrected version, SqueakBox, but after this, I don't think I'll bother. Merry Christmas.


It has far too many links, making it confusing to even read. The links are also scattered everywhere instead of being in a neat pile. Also it mentions little about Beenie mans actual biography, instead it's mostly recent tracks and albums he sold.

I deleted the LGBT stuff. If you can name me a reggae artist who IS tolerant of homosexuality, I'll put it all back. As it stands, the fact that reggae artists are homophobic is neither news, nor belongs in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scientz (talk • contribs)

I restored the section explaining the controversy. Any popular musician who sings about "executing all the gays" is not just upholding the status quo; that kind of hate speech is notable in or out of a reggae song. As for a reggae artist who accepts homosexuality, I give you Michael Franti; and if other reggae artists are writing similarly hateful lyrics, their inclusion is a matter to be decided in each individual's article. --Grace 07:07, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Again, I have re-deleted it. Discussion of reggae's--and furthermore, Jamaican culture's--anti-homosexual bent belongs in the reggae article or in an article on Jamaica. Not in every individual artist's pages. Michael Franti of Spearhead is not Jamaican reggae, but a typically more alternative form of music, and a very weak example. Non-acceptance or outright hatred of homosexuality in the norm in reggae music, not the exception to the rule. I am not saying this isn't notable. But it belongs on the reggae page. I have a similar disagreement with those who choose to add misogyny to the pages of American rappers. Again, the norm, not the exception to the rule. Any discussion of hip-hop's misogyny would belong in the page on rap, not in each artist's page. --Scientz

Focussing on anti homosexuality in reggae does a disservice to the fact that the great majority of music by the great majority of artists contains no anti homosexual lyrics while it is issues like Rastafari and conscious music that dominate the reggae scene and have done so since the beginning. Ras Billy I 22:31, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with your notion that Rastafari themes have a larger predominance in dancehall reggae music. --Scientz

Well I only listen to the internet radio for reggae, and most of what I hear on totally radio for instance is very rastafari oriented. Here where I live in the Spanish Caribbean what dominates is the reggaeton, which isnt rasta oriented and is a Spanish language form of reggae, so I certainly bow to your superior knowledge about the English speaking dancehall scene, and nor do I disagree that anti homosexuality as an issue should be talked about at reggae etc. I dont know Jamaica either and wonder if the issue of gays is very different from Latin America where there is prejudice but it doesnt stop people from being openly gay, especially in red light districts, or for being murdered for it, 6 people recently in one case in Guatemala. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skanking (talk • contribs)

Yes, there isn't much dancehall played on the radio, just as there isn't much hardcore rap played either. But as one who has spent about 10 years on the club scene for rap/reggae, I can honestly say that the majority of dancehall does include negative references to homosexuals. Now, if this is a notable issue, it belongs in a section on the reggae page, not as what appears to be trolling on EVERY popular reggae artist's page. Incidentally, the addition of the LGBT info seems to be added by users who identify as "queer" on their user pages. If that isn't POV, I don't know what is. --Scientz
Remember to assume good faith - the fact that I'm queer doesn't disqualify me from writing neutrally about the subject! I'm not sure why you say the issue is mentioned on "EVERY popular reggae artist's page". Just looking at a few randomly, I don't see anything about it on Sean Paul, Sly & Robbie, Althea & Donna, Lee "Scratch" Perry, Desmond Dekker, Bob Marley, Ziggy Marley or Damian Marley. But what every other page says is fairly irrelevant anyway - let's keep it focused on this article.
Lyrics that could easily be interpreted as hate speech, such as "come to execute all the gays", are notable no matter who wrote them. In addition, there's currently a section about MTV withdrawing Beenie Man from an awards ceremony "due to adverse publicity and threats of protests and boycotts". This is certainly a notable issue, and I can only assume this is because of his homophobia (though the MTV paragraph makes no sense without the context you removed). I heard about him because the radio station I work for sent out a notice on our mailing list requesting announcers not to play Beenie Man because homophobia is against our station policy. I think these two examples are enough to suggest that one reason Beenie Man is notable is because of his homophobia. I've restored the section. --Grace 00:58, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Had you used any dancehall examples in your selection of "reggae" artists, I might be convinced. As it stands, it is clear you have less than "up-to-par" knowledge of reggae or Jamaican culture in general. Sean Paul is a top 40 artist, and if you had heard his material before he became famous, you would not have included him in your defense. Damian Marley's "Welcome to Jamrock" contains a slew of anti-homosexual references, and the other artists you mention have as much to do with modern reggae as The Sugar Hill Gang have to do with modern rap. I'm afraid you have no authority on the subject other than your ire as a homosexual. I apologize if that offends you. --Scientz
I based my list on the Wikipedia articles only, intending to refute your use of the word "every". But it wasn't all that important. I'm neither angry nor homosexual, and your refutations of my points shouldn't rest upon what you assume about my character (see ad hominem). Did you read the rest of my comment? Please respond to the other things I said. One of those things was that MTV withdrawing Beenie Man from an awards ceremony due to protests is a notable issue, and it makes no sense if explained only by some vague "adverse publicity". I respectfully request that you give an adequate defense of your deletion of that section before you delete it again. --Grace 01:43, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
My "defense of that section's deletion" has been the same all along. Modern dancehall reggae is, by its very nature, anti-homosexual. If you believe this is notable--which, for you, it probably is--then mention of that fact belkongs on the reggae page. I am speaking as an authority on the subject, whereas for you, "reggae" appears to include Sly & Robbie, Althea & Donna, Lee "Scratch" Perry, Desmond Dekker, Bob Marley, Ziggy Marley, none of whom are dancehall artists. Which, again is why I feel you have a particular agenda with respect include an artist's anti-LGBT stance, as opposed to recognizing it as a greater symptom of dancehall in general, and in fact, modern Jamaican culture as a whole. You have employed Michael Franti in your defense, who is not even Jamaican, and whose only inclusion merit I can see would be that he wears his hair in dreadlocks. I am really trying to be respectful here. Jamaican culture, and its number one modern export--dancehall reggae--is anti-homosexual. If that offends you as a homosexual, I would suggest any note of that fat belongs in an article on reggae or Jamaica, and not in each dancehall artist's page. Had you even known what constitutes a "dancehall" artist, you would have known where to look in order to realize my claim. I have deleted similar references from Capleton, Buju Banton, Sizzla as well as a few others who escape me at the moment, dancehall artists all of them. For the record, in the talk page of reggae, I have said that anti-LGBT info *BELONGS* there. The accusation that it is "homophopbic" as you put it should be an accusation at modern Jamaican culture as a whole, and not as a stain on each artist's Wiki page. --Scientz

While I think a brief mention of the homophobia stuff can be mentioned on the individual pages I also think there should be a section at reggae or a new article on the subject that can then be linked back to here, to Buju Banton, etc, thus giving a link to where there is encyclopedic information about this subject without it being allowed to dominate each article, which would be imposing a western politically correct view on artists who are clearly neither western (ie first world) nor politically correct. IMO these artists are unnecessarily being given a hard time by countrires which use censorship to suppress any opposition to pro gay views, something as disturbing as anti homophobia itself. Ras Billy I 14:07, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

This view is something I hadn't thought of, and also with which I completely agree. --Scientz

I have worked a brief mention of the basis for the adverse publicity. I agree that a lengthy discussion of how reggae lyrics reflect prevailing attitudes in artists' homelands is better placed elsewhere, but I do think that brief mention of why a controversy arose for this particular artist needs to be in this article. --Charlie GALVIN 19:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the more extensive discussion is better in other articles, but as Charlie says we do have to make sure this article briefly contextualizes the issue for those who aren't familiar with the homophobic aspects of Jamaican culture - many people around the world wouldn't be, and the article isn't only for dancehall fans. I added a sentence to the controversy section, acknowledging the fact that anti-gay lyrics are common in Jamaican dancehall reggae - so that it doesn't look like Beenie Man is being singled out. There's also a relevant section in the LGBT rights in Jamaica article, which I linked to. I also removed an external link to some "reggae in Pittsburgh" site that appears to be spam - Beenie Man isn't from Pittsburgh, is he? --Grace 00:20, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I concur. Consensus has been reached. --Scientz
Hmmm, it's obviously a compromise that has been carefully worked out here and it reads very much like it. In return for being allowed to mention homophobia as an issue, there are a couple of sentences which go to some length towards explaining (or more likely excusing) it. It is a matter of "misunderstanding" and the final "homosexual activity remains a criminal offense" reads more like saying "well, it's a crime, no wonder people speak out against it" than trying to establish context. I agree 100% with those saying that it's a much wider issue than one simply relating to Beenie Man which is also why I feel the paragraph is not doing the issue justice. Risking destabilising the equilibrium, I would suggest replacing the bit:
"This may be due in part to a misunderstanding of the dancehall lyrical culture. He and other dancehall artists preach killing, fire, gunshots and ultimate death for other members of society, including his rival Bounty Killer, but these are never taken literally, nor released internationally. His hatred for homosexuals is not unusual in a society where, as Amnesty International has noted, gays and lesbians are widely persecuted; homosexual activity remains a criminal offense."
...with "Please see LGBT rights in Jamaica and Dancehall#The_culture_of_dancehall for more information" or something like it. Since there is both the issue of balancing Beenie's individual part with societal mores AND obviously differing opinions on how to treat the issue in a NPOV manner, it's unreasonable to try to get a meaningful five line compromise.
chochem 02:31, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The byline of "established black homophobic rasta deejay" is offensive on a number of levels. Firstly, I hardly see race in the byline of any other artist. Secondly the charge of opposition to homosexuality, does not characterize enough of his mission as an artist to be included as his byline. Neither does it set him apart from any other dancehall artist. Inclusion under controversies or issues facing this artist is probably more correct. Fair discussion of those issues in their own category would lend greater credence to this biographical work. In sharp sontrast is the introduction on Elton John, a self-confessed homosexual, who has actually named the issue of gay rights as part of his mission. Thirdly Rasta is a religion, and it is questionalble wether the artists religion need be included in the tagline. Moreover, for those who are familiar with his lifestyle, Beenie would not qualify as practicing the tenets of rastafrianism. It would be more correct to describe him as dreadlocked, rather than to attempt to characterize his faith. As it stands the introduction to Beenie Man reads like an unbalanced, inaccurate, racial and malicious slur against the artist.

If there is going to be a section about him being homophobic, surely there should be a mention of when he asked Simon Amstell, presenter of Popworld "Do you have a girlfriend?" and Amstell replied "I had a boyfriend but we split up," and gave him his phone number on a banana. I tried to put it in, but I couldn't quite manage to keep it succinct and Wikipedia-like. I'll leave it to any other more skilled Wiki writer to put it in if they want to.86.18.247.55 20:52, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clear Bias

MTV had plans to include Beenie Man in their roster of performers at the 2004 MTV Video Music Awards, held in Miami, Florida, but due to a group gay and lesbian bloggers who disapproved of some of his Jamaican releases made a decade earlier (in response to highly a publicized man/boy rape case in Jamaica in which Beenie Man and other entertainers used their artistic abilities to expose the horrific case[citation needed]), MTV decided to exclude Beenie Man [4].

It is clear in this paragraph that the edit is hoping to alleviate the criticism of Beenie man and uses emotive language to show LGBT bloggers as being somehow gratuitous in their objections.

Beenie Man's use of the phrase battyman is a clear reference to homosexuality, specifically anal intercourse between two men. This is a common Jamaican slang still in use today.[5]

Once again a clear redaction... if the latter sentence is true then this point being made is less significant, but such structure at the moment is clearly wrought to undermine the contraversy.

(Though) criticisms of his lyrics have received a disproportionate amount and the tone in his music noticeably has become less aggressive[citation needed].

The current phrasing is just a disguised attempt to look objective and moderate, but is in fact just one more addition to the argument that Beenie Man's homosexuality is incidental or justified. No doubt this has occurred from member's objections to the section's presence at all, but should remain objective so long as it remains on the page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.7.45.241 (talk) 14:48, 9 May 2007 (UTC).


Characterization of Peter Thatchell as a human rights activist is not correct in the present tense. He is a gay rights activist.

Both are correct. Peter Thatchell and Outrage campaign for LGBT rights. By definition LGBT rights are human rights. However the the former is a more descriptivie and accurate term so I've substituted human rights with LGBT rights Nil Einne (talk) 12:08, 24 December 2007 (UTC)