Talk:Battle of Maritsa

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[edit] Strength of the armies

Where this number of 20,000 men come from? According to Encyclopædia Britannica, Serbian forces numbered 70,000 men; "Another campaign to resist Turkish expension was organised in 1371 by Vukasin, the king of the southern Serbian lands, who gathered an army of 70,000 men an marched into the Maritsa valley". The Ottoman army was 'much' smaller; "While halting at Chernomen [...], however, his forces were surprised by a much smaller Turkish army...". And also the Serbian casualties must be considered heavy; "...which slaughtered large number of Serbs, including Vukasin, and drove many of the survivors into the river to be drowned." (Encyclopædia Britannica).
Lysandros 01:18, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

"Three years later, in 1364 Philippolis fell to Lala Shahin, the Turkish commander in Europe. The States beyond the Balkan now began to dread the advance of the Turks; at the instigation of the Pope an allied army of 60,000 Serbs, Hungarians, Wallachians and Moldavians attaked Lala Shahin. Murad, who had returned to Brusa, crossed over to Biga, and send on Haji Ilbeyi with 10,000 men; this fell by night on the Serbians and utterly routed them at a place still known as the 'Serbians' coffer' (at Maritsa river)." Encyclopedia Britannica, Edition 1910, Vol. 27, pp 443, 444 Lysandros 11:10, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

This article is confusing. It is true that the Serbian Army (with all the allies) amounts to 60,000-70,000 men; but the Turkish force in Europe is overestimated. It was 4,000-4,500 strong (and this is sourced), and not as the article states. And further, the problem is, on what does this article concentrate? These are the sizes of their armies throughout the whole military campaign. For instance, the front which was led by Ugljesa & Vukasin and that (very likely) is the only part of the army that really fought a battle numbered 20,000. There were numerous minor battles along the road. Besides that, in the greatest of the clashes, when the Ottoman Turks caught the Serbs totally by surprise (which is possibly that "Battle of Chernomen" everyone seems to refer to"), the Turkish squadron numbered 800 soldiers. The article should be expanded and corrected. --PaxEquilibrium 22:36, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Allied Balkan forces

"the allied Balkan forces (including Serbs, Bulgarians, Hungarians, Wallachians and Moldavians) numbering between 60,000 and 70,000 men"

I think that this number is very ovrestimated. Compare it with estimated Serbian forces in the Battle of Kosovo.Also, I couldn't find anywhere (except here) facts about participation of Bulgarians, Hungarians, Wallachians and Moldavians. This information should be checked. Andrija January 9, 2007

I’m also confused with information about Hungarians, Wallachians and Moldavians forces. Both Vukashin and Ugljesa were Serbian lords, King Vukashin was even co-ruler of Serbian emperor. I can understand that his forces included local ethnic Bulgarian and Greek lords, but Hungarian, Wallachian and Moldavian lands were hundred miles away. Like any other medieval army, his army probably included some foreigners who served as professional solders. However, it doesn’t mean that was coalition of Balkan forces. Also, we can’t speak about nations in modern sense – they were simply medieval political nations. --N Jordan 17:28, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

"At the instigation of Pope Urban V, a crusading army of Hungarians, Serbians, Bosnians, and Wallachians was formed, and in 1364 it set forth to recapture Adrianople. It marched undisturbed to Maritsa, but there it was surprised by a night attack and cut to pieces." Leften Stavros Stavrianos, The Balkans Since 1453, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2000. p. 43

"A united force of Serbs, Bosnians and Wallachians joined a Hungarian army under the Hungarian king, Louis the Great and marched against Turks at Edirne. [...] Less than two days from Edirne they made camp on the banks of the river Maritsa and celebrated their progress with festing. The local Ottoman commander led his predominately light cavalry arm in an ambush by night. The Christians fled across the Maritsa, which was in spate, and thousands drowned." Turnbull Stephen R., The Ottoman Empire 1326-1699, Osprey Publishing, 2003. p. 15

Maybe the Moldavians were not involved.. Various sources give different dates (1363, 1364, 1366, 1371) for the event. According to some sources (Turnbull, Stavrianos), several battles occurred in the same place; first Maritsa (1363 or 1364), Samakov (1371), second Maritsa or Chernomen (1371). Lysandros 23:11, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I would not be surprised that they are talking about different battles. I understand this is an article about the battle at the Maritsa (Марица, Εβρος) River near the village of Chernomen, on September 26th, 1371. According to Columbia Encyclopedia http://www.bartleby.com/65/lo/Louis1Hun.html, Louis the Great campaigned successfully against the Ottomans in 1377. Mrnjavcevics brothers weren't Roman Catholics Orthodox (all Serbian medieval lords were Orthodox), so pope was not involved at all.

Turkish sources are not reliable when they describe defeated enemies. The importance of victory is emphasized by increasing number of defeated enemies. Ottoman armies intensively fought against Hungarians, Wallachians and Moldavians during 15th and 16th century. It was good to beleive that they defeted them in 14th century. Also, the battle of Maritsa was from Ottoman point of view just a minor battle, the sultan was not involved. So, even the year (1364) is not correect. For Serbs that was a turning point of their history, probably more important than famous battle of Kosovo.

The article in Encyclopædia Britannica http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9050991 is very good: (Sept. 26, 1371), Ottoman Turk victory over Serbian forces that allowed the Turks to extend their control over southern Serbia and Macedonia. After the Ottoman sultan Murad I (reigned 1360–89) advanced into Thrace, conquered Adrianople, and thereby gained control of the Maritsa River valley, which led into the central Balkans, the Christian states of the Balkans formed an alliance to drive him back. Their early efforts ended in defeat, and the Bulgarians were compelled to become vassals of the sultan (1366). Another campaign to resist Turkish expansion was organized in 1371 by Vukašin, the king of the southern Serbian lands, who gathered an army of 70,000 men and marched into the Maritsa valley. While halting at Chernomen (Chirmen; located between Philippopolis and Adrianople), however, his forces were surprised by a much smaller Turkish army, which slaughtered large numbers of Serbs, including Vukašin, and drove many of the survivors into the river to be drowned. The battle involved such carnage that the field was later referred to as “the Serbs' destruction.” It confirmed Bulgaria's status as a vassal-state to the Turks and destroyed the independent South Serbian kingdom, whose new ruler, Marko Kraljevic, became a vassal of the sultan. Macedonia and ultimately the remainder of the Balkan Peninsula were exposed to Turkish conquest.

Also, the article in Serbian Wikipedia http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BA%D0%B0 is also good if somebody has time to translate it.--N Jordan 07:04, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

The place of the battle ocurred in 1364 was also Maritsa river not far from Chernomen, and according to some sources Louis the Great of Hungary was involved:

"The capture of Edirne also stimulated Serbia, Bosnia, and Hungary to unite against the Sultan. In 1364 they formed an allied army and marched toward Maritsa in the hope of pushing the Turks out of Europe before it was too late. However, Murad ambushed their camp on the Maritsa near Edirne in a battle known in Turkish story as the 'Rout of the Serbs' (Sırp Sındığı). Many soldiers and princes were drowned as they tried to swim across the river for safety. Louis the great of Hungary was able to escape only with difficulty." Stanford Jay Shaw, History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey, Cambridge University Press, 1977. pp. 18-19

This was maybe the 'First Batle of Maritsa', and the Pope Urban V also played a role (see Turnbull).

"Turkish sources are not reliable when they describe defeated enemies." Ok but, are the Turkish sources reliable when they describe Ottoman defeats? Or not reliable for all?.. Anyway i only cited English language publications (Turnbull, Stavrianos, Shaw).

For the Ottomans the battle was not so 'minor', for them this was the first significant victory against a western crusading army, which made possible the conquest of the Balkans. Lysandros 17:04, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I don’t know about the battle in 1364 that was mentioned in Ottoman sources. The battle that is a subject of this article took place in September 1371. Pope and Louis the Great of Hungary were not involved. According to the Columbia Encyclopedia, in 1377, Louis campaigned successfully against the Ottomans. However, I haven’t found anything else about Hungarian activities against Ottomans during that time.

According to Serbian sources, Vukashin become a king in 1365. From that time his portrait appeared at Serbian money. In 1366 he sent representatives to the Republic of Ragusa, the event was recorded in the city records. In June 1371 Vukashin was with his army near city of Shkodra, waiting for ships from Ragusa to transport his army. He changed his mind after receiving request from his brother to help him against Ottomans.

So, the battle on Marica that involved king Vukashin didn’t took place in 1364. Ottoman sources may refer to different battle in same area, or information about the year was not correct. If Turnbull, Stavrianos, and Shaw relied on Ottoman sources, they could be wrong – or simply referring to different battle.

Especially at that time, Turkish sources are not reliable when they describe defeated enemies. Yes, because that was just a beginning of their military activities in Europe. If they captured few Hungarian mercenaries they could think that Hungarian army was involved. In 1371 the sultan was not in Europe. So, Ottoman information about the battle was based on reports received from Lala Şahin Paşa. At the same time, if they received reports about different battles fought at the same place, they could be confused and mix them.

Bottom line: if this is an article about the battle in 1371 we should avoid info that doesn’t apply for that battle. --N Jordan 23:52, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Some informations about the battle of Maritsa (1371):

"One of these Serb leaders, Vukashin, who ruled in Serres, combined his forces with sympathetic Serbian allies and marched northwards towards the Maritsa Valley full of hope. But far from driving the Turks out of Europe they suffered agreat defeat on 26 September at the battle of Chernomen where all the Serbian leaders were killed. This battle, also known as the second battle of Maritsa, was called in the Turkish chroniclers Sirf Sindigi (the destruction of the Serbs)." Turnbull, Ottoman Empire 1326-1699, p. 23

"Nevertheless, the Serbs resolved to stop the Turks in the valley of the Maritsa and marched as far as Chernomen, between Philippopolis and Adrianople. There, at dawn on September 26, 1371, a greatly inferior Turkish force surprised them and and slaughtered large numbers. So great was the carnage that the battlefield is still called the Sebs' destruction." Stavrianos, The Balkans Since 1453, p. 44 Lysandros 15:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Both Stavrianos and Turnbull are pretty correct here. Vukashin didn’t rule in Serres, and they marched toward the east (not north).

Anyway, the last version of the article is excellent, thank you. The only information that needs verification might be related to the participation of Bulgarian allays. I couldn’t find anything about this battle in articles about Bulgarian history. (The only allays they had were Balsics brothers in Montenegro and Ragusa. Mrnjavcevics were not popular neighbors :-) ) --N Jordan 17:33, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bulgarians?

There were forces from Bulgaria in the battle? --PaxEquilibrium 14:48, 28 October 2007 (UTC)