Talk:Balk

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[edit] Clean up

I cleaned up this page a little. First of all, balks are not judgment calls (i.e. "ball/strike" is a judgment call). Balks are simply violations of rules as outlined in the rule book. Additionally, the pitcher's intent has nothing to do with a balk.

I train umpires, so I see these misconceptions from coaches and players very often. If you have any questions, I would be happy to clarify anything. Please discuss on this page. Ags412 06:15, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Again, ball/strike is not a judgement call last i checked. Being a trainer for umpires i guess you knew that.

i am not sure where you are going with the statement that "Balks are things a pitcher does to deceive a runner". Then what is the purpose of the rule to begin with? Balks are when pitchers attempt to deceive batters or runners with where they intend on going with a pitch. The procedures you cite that cause a balk are baseball's description of what is deceptive and what is not. They can change tomorrow if they feel pitchers have found new ways to deceive runners. Then your article is wrong and you will need to change it.

The purpose of the balk rule is to prevent pitcher's from performing actions deemed illegal. The words "deception", "deceive", etc. are no where to be found in the rule book. The list of violations is NOT baseball's description of what deceives a runner like you said. For example, does dropping the ball on the rubber deceive a runner? No, but it is a balk because it's a rule violation. Does throwing to an unoccupied base deceive a runner? No, and it certainly won't get anybody out if the base is unoccupied! But again, it is a balk because it's a rule violation.
Balks are simply a list of things a pitcher is prohibited from doing. Pitchers are in reality encouraged to deceive runners if they can find legal ways to do so. And no, baseball cannot change the rules tomorrow. In fact, the balk rules have not changed in almost 100 years. It is sad the majority of baseball fans have never read the rule book, it provides such a better understanding of the game. But the fact is, balks are very clear cut rule violations. and have nothing to do with "deceiving runners".
This is not meant to be an attacking post, I'm just trying to help more people understand balks.Ags412 18:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

My point is what is the purpose of the rule. All rules serve a purpose for existing. I dont have a historical book on how all of the rules developed- Im sure the intent of a rule is not included in the baseball rule book. Since day one pitchers have been encourgaged to deceive runners and hitters- i agree- but one of the violations you cite for a balk is throwing when a hitter is not ready. I think this would be considered deception or tricking the hitter. I think the problem you are having in regards with people thinking balks are intended to limit the pitchers ability to deceive- is your are just applying codes without attempting to explain why they exist. Rules are meant to be created, changed, and removed however the heart of a rule will never change. I believe the original intent for a balk was to limit the pitchers ability to "over deceive". Do not cite the MLB rule book saying this is not right. Get some history about the codes you are citing and why the codes exist to begin with. For instance- the NJ driver's handbook says dont speed- doesnt say why - there is certainly a reason why we have speeding limits. This article would be better with a history of the rule along with the violations you cite.

I appreciate your interest in the history of the balk rule, however what you are seeking is not the purpose of this article. You are literally asking for my opinion on the intent of balks and/or original research into their purpose. There is no official documentation of the intent of rules. Why is it three strikes for an out as opposed to two or four? Now of course the balk rules aren't an arbitrary number and there is purpose behind them.
If asked my opinion, I would say the balk rules force a sense of order and discipline upon pitchers so everyone knows what is expected to happen. But this is my opinion and I cannot put that in the article. Another umpire might have another theory. Maybe there is a credible source we can find that has a credible opinion, so if you want to find it (and cite it) you have that ability.
I am however adamant that the phrase "to deceive a runner" remains out of this article. That misconception completely misrepresents the rule and will only confuse readers. It is not true and connecting it to this rule will only do a disservice to readers trying to understand the balk rule. It is an untrue statement and belongs nowhere in this article.Ags412 17:39, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

What I find intersting though- is no doubt you have been around baseball for a while but I was watching a telecast of a game the other day and heard sarge matthews say a balk is when a pitcher decieves a runner or hitter. Mr. Matthews probably has a bit more experience with baseball than either you or I.

While Mr. Matthews does have more experience in baseball, it does not mean he knows the rules precisely. Joe Morgan and Tim McCarver make the same mistake all the time. It is unbelievably frustrating that people who have spent their lives in baseball do not understand this rule. This is why such a rumor exists. But unfortunately there is no requirement of reading the rulebook to become a player, coach, or announcer. I guarantee if you ask an MLB umpire, they would not make the same mistake. I of course concede Mr. Matthews knows much more than me in hitting, fielding, coaching, etc. But experience is not a factor in this instance, it is merely a case of reading the rulebook correctly.Ags412 16:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deception

In the Official Baseball Rules, the Comments to Rule 8.05 specifically refer to determining intent to deceive the runner. Here is one such reference:

"Comment: Umpires should bear in mind that the purpose of the balk rule is to prevent the pitcher from deliberately deceiving the base runner. If there is doubt in the umpire’s mind, the “intent” of the pitcher should govern. However, certain specifics should be borne in mind:
(a) Straddling the pitcher’s rubber without the ball is to be interpreted as intent to deceive and ruled a balk.
(b) With a runner on first base the pitcher may make a complete turn, without hesitating toward first, and throw to second. This is not to be interpreted as throwing to an unoccupied base. "

Of course, the Comments in essence have the same effect as rules, as noted in the Foreword to the Official Baseball Rules:

"IMPORTANT NOTE The Official Playing Rules Committee at its December 1977 meeting, voted to incorporate the Notes Case Book Comments section directly into the Official Playing Rules at the appropriate places. Basically, the Case Book interprets or elaborates on the basic rules and in essence have the same effect as rules when applied to particular sections for which they are intended. This arrangement is designed to give quicker access to any written language pertaining to an Official Rule and does not require a reader to refer to different sections of the Official Playing Rules book in considering the application of a particular rule."

Justus R 01:55, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

So it is never allowable to fake a throw to first base? In other words would the play seen in "Little Big League" (Yes, I know it's just a movie) where the pitcher fakes the throw to first as if to pick off Griffey, everybody runs to foul territory as if the ball got away, and then the pitcher throws Griffey out at second have been correctly ruled a balk? ---B- (talk) 04:20, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

The purpose of this section when I wrote it was to refute the argument that was going on, above, over whether intent to deceive the runner was a part of the balk rule, not to talk about which specific actions should be called balks in a game.
This discussion should be more about the article rather than a forum on the application of the rule, unless that impacts the editing of the article. Having said that, in answer to your question, if the pitcher steps towards first base directly from the set position, he must throw to first. He may, however, step backwards off the pitcher's plate (legally coming out of the set position), then throw or fake a throw to first base. I have not seen the movie, but I did find a clip on You Tube. In the clip, you can't see the pitcher's feet, so it is not possible to tell with 100% certainty if he stepped backwards first. However, it appears that he did not. If it is correct that he faked the throw to first base without first stepping off, then that was a balk and the runner would be awarded second base. Justus R (talk) 14:58, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Editing list of balkable actions

It seems today one or two editors (depending on who the IP address belongs to, have added balkable actions to the list without providing comment or source. They are not reflected in the rule. WHile there are instances where such actions may result in a balk being called, the specifics are contained in other portions of the rule already listed. For example, "throws to the first baseman, who because of his distance from the bag, cannot make a tag attempt on the runner" is not listed in the rule. However, "unnecessarily delays the game" covers that particular action by the terms of the Comment: "Rule 8.05(h) Comment: Rule 8.05(h) shall not apply when a warning is given pursuant to Rule 8.02(c) (which prohibits intentional delay of a game by throwing to fielders not in an attempt to put a runner out). If a pitcher is ejected pursuant to Rule 8.02(c) for continuing to delay the game, the penalty in Rule 8.05(h) shall also apply."

Also, how is "Engages the rubber with his hands together; the balk may be called once he separates his hands" different from "after bringing his hands together on the rubber, separates them except in making a pitch or a throw"?

I am removing these two on the list for now, pending an explanation of why they belong in this list. Justus R 03:05, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I added the part about the first baseman because it is specific to first base. For some reason in the rules, first base has some special designations. For example, you cannot fake a throw to first base while in contact. Also, you cannot throw to the first baseman if, because of his distance from the bag, cannot make a play on the runner.

I've cleaned up the wording on this a bit. Clearer, but not as elegant. Locarno

But, you could fake a throw to second or third base. Also, for example, you could throw to the shortstop who is 10 feet from the bag if there is a runner on second. I cannot cite an online source, however, this is coming from Jaksa and Roder's Rules of Professional Baseball. You can find their book at rulesofbaseball.com. These guys taught at the only umpiring schools that are licensed to train umpires for Major League Baseball. This example of throwing to the first baseman is specifically covered in that. It is not directly in OBR because it is a casebook example. In fact, I believe it might be in the PBUC Umpire Manual. No offense Justus R, but you cannot claim to be a "rules freak" if you don't know about this example Jpm986 13:27, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Editing Article to conform language to OBR

In the Official Baseball Rules, the rule on calling a balk for delaying the game says "unnecessarily" not inordinately. That is why I put in "unnecessarily" in that bullet point. Also, throwing to the first baseman while in contact with the pitcher's plate when not close enough to make a play on the runner is no different from throwing to another fielder who is not close enough to make a play. Hence, I removed that listing as being non-comprehensive and not reflective of the rule. While it is true that such an action can be called a balk, it is certainly not described in that manner.

If there are citations to rules other than OBR that do use that wording, then some compromise language referring to the differing rules certainly may be possible.Justus R 21:54, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

This article need not match OBR; it should instead report whatever verifiable rules there are on the balk. I can confirm that Jaksa/Roder manual is an authoritative source when it comes to baseball rules. Also there are dozens of errors in the OBR; the "unnecessarily" wording is one of them. It is obvious to any baseball fan that pitchers at all levels unnecessarily delay the game all the time. Do I really need to go find a journalist who wrote about this just so we can change the wording here? Could someone who has a copy of Jaksa/Roder please look this up and reference it? Locarno 18:33, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Jaksa and Rodder has it as unnecessarily as well. I'm going to update the first baseman balk rule. I just cross-referenced it with the PBUC manual (which is where many of these interpretations come from that MLB umpires use that are not specifically stated in OBR Jpm986 23:43, 25 July 2007 (UTC)