Talk:Bagratuni Dynasty

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[edit] Comments

This page needs further improvement. I’m going to return to it as soon as I’ve finished my work on the Georgian Bagratids. Kober 08:41, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map

Parishan, you know talk pages are created to make comments and discuss the article. Making extra copies of the same article just to make a comment is hurting wikipedia. Regarding my revert. You are removing a material from the article based on a visual map. Unless you want to show us real academic sources, please don't disturb the article. VartanM 02:16, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

There was no interpretation of maps. You claim that according to Hewsen, the Bagratid Kingdom looked like what is drawn on Eupator's map attributed to 1000. I provided a link to a map from Hewsen's Armenia: Historical Atlas numbered 91 and entitled The Bagratid Kingdoms in Armenia, 962-1064. There is no similarity between what Hewsen depicted and what Eupator has on his map. There is no reason for the latter to be here.
Moreover, no credible source lists lands to the east of Dvin as part of Armenia during that period. Even Karen Yuzbashian, an Armenian historian, in the preface to Aristakes Lastivertsi's Narrative describes Armenia as following:
By the 10th century significant part of Northern Armenia was ruled by the Bagratuni. Under Ashot III (952–977) a once small fortress of Ani became the capital of the Shirak Kingdom and in a known sense, the all-Armenian capital. To the south of Shirak, around Lake Van and to its east, the Vaspurakan Kingdom was situated. It was ruled by the second most powerful dynasty (to the Bagratuni), the Artsruni. The rivalry between them and the Bagratuni would be most intense. In 908, Amir Yousouf presented Gagik Artsruni (908–943) with a royal crown, sent by the Khalif, in the attempt to end the growing influence of the Shirak kings.
To the west of the Shirak Kingdom, the Kingdom of Vanand with its capital in Kars was situated. It was ruled by Kings who belonged to the offshoot of the Bagratuni. In 970, a new principality emerged in southeastern Armenia - the Principality of Siunik, which similarly to Vanand was the dependency of the Bagratuni of Shirak. The capital of Siunik was originally Sisian, and later Kapan.
In the second half of the 10th century, the Tashir-Dzoraget, or the Lori Kingdom, emerged in northern Armenia with the capital in Lore, also ruled by the Bagratuni. Besides these purely Armenian states, the Principality of Tao with a mixed Armenian-Georgian population played a significant political role. Beginning in the 960s, it was ruled by Davit Kuropala, one of the most powerful feudal monarchs of the Transcaucasus.
The source then talks about the unification of Shirak, Lori, Vanand and to some extent Vaspurakan under Gagik's rule. As you see, nothing is said about Zangezur's or Karabakh's role in this unification. Parishan 06:30, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
You are putting words in my mouth, the map reads Armenian Feudal Kingdoms, your argument for removing it, in itself wasn't even relevant. Hewsen depicted 7 Armenian Kingdoms in his The Kingdom of Arc'ax, which covers about what is in the map which reads: Armenian Feudal Kingdoms, Karabakh AND Zankezur are there. There is no mistake on the map, as it really depict Armenian Feudal Kingdoms, your exclusions under the claim that some are not Bagradid is irrelevent as the map does not say Bagradids. It is also not very easy in some cases to tell who is a Bagradid and who is not, the genealogy was already posted at Khachen article, and several princes come from the other genealogy tree of the Bagradids, particularly those more Eastward, included Karabakh. VartanM 18:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)