Talk:Bagramyan Battalion

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[edit] Terrorists or no?

In such conflicts as Georgian-Abkhaz war all parties engaged in attacks against civilians. See Georgian-Abkhaz Conflict for references. We don't call British, Nazi or USSR terrorists although they certainly attacked civilians during WW2.

Moreover this group is not in any of the terrorist group list of any significant country (US, UK, EU, Australia, Russia). [1] Alaexis 10:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I called MIPT group directly. They confirmed, this group is NOT a terrorist group, but a Nationalist/Separatist as defined by category section on the web site, and they NEVER referred to this group as Terrorist on their web site. Also they got this information from Information Source - Tbilisi Prime News. Which is biased towards georgian version of what happened. Steelmate 19:02, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Its in many terrorist group lists.

[2] and also in the Human Rights Reports, calling that "battalion" as terrorist organization. Ldingley 18:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Which report? For which date? How is it called? Please give us source. Steelmate 19:04, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Just checked, user Ldingley is : "This user has been blocked indefinitely from editing Wikipedia"... So please discard his information as unreliable. Steelmate 19:06, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
In any case, we can't use the "terrorist" label on Wiki simply because it's POV and it's a word to avoid. -- Aivazovsky (talk) 01:21, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What reference?

Here ([3]) it's written: base of operation - Georgia. All the activies mentioned below also were carried out in Georgia. Alaexis 08:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

This link says its in Russia[4]. KazakhPol 08:23, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
According to that list 'Oklahoma Constitutional Militia' is also in Russia :). Some mistake, I presume since on the organisation's page on the same site it's written that it was based in Georgia. Alaexis 08:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Good point. KazakhPol 08:28, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Atrocities (Excesses) by Georgian Army leading to creation of Bagramyan Batallion

Folks, we all know that armenians didn't want to get involved into the conflict initially, but then when georgian army came and started killing, raping, robbing armenian villages, from the perspective of self-defence abkhazian armenians created this batallion. Please look for information about incident at Labra. And please put here into discussion board all the info you can get, so we can represent this on a Wikipedia page in an NPOV manner.Thanx. Steelmate 13:37, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

No martyrology, please. Armenians fought on both sides. And those who supported Abkhaz, did so even before the outbreak of hostilities.--KoberTalk 13:40, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
They didn't support Abkhaz, they supported their homes from those who came on tanks and started robbing them instead of protecting, and calling themselfs Georgian Army, made up from people who went to Abkhazia to loot and steal along with other real patriots of Georgia. Any way , I don't support any war, including the war that georgian politians started in Abkhazia. Tbilisi armenians didn't fought for their homes as nobody endangered them, they had to fight as they were called upon by georgian government. Big difference. Steelmate 14:25, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Judging from your latest post, you have a very strange undestanding of NPOV. Smbat Sahakian, so brutally killed by Abkhaz or their hero Shamil Basayev, was not from Tbilisi. He was the leader of Abkhazia's Armenian community and member of the de jure government. Anyway, I'm not going to prove you anything and waste my time and energy in this unproductive discussion. --KoberTalk 15:19, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Steelmate, please consult Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Armeniapedia cannot be accepted as a reliable source because it is "an online encyclopedia about everything related to Armenia and Armenians that anyone can edit." By that logic, we can also use a Georgian version of Wikipedia or any similar project.--KoberTalk 17:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Kober, it says nothing against using other wiki projects. The Armeniapedia is valuable resource to everything related to Armenia. I would love to see something like that done by Georgians. Steelmate 17:10, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Armeniapedia is not a scholarly source or mainstream media outlet. Anyone can put anything there to say nothing about its Armenocentrist character. You will have to prove that it really is "valuable" enough to be used in what is supposed to be an encyclopedia. Here's another useful guidline for you: WP:3RR. --KoberTalk 17:12, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Btw, we have a well-organized group of anti-Georgian users on Wikipedia. So, welcome to the club! In the meantime, I'm trying to bring your additions more in line with NPOV standards and please don't POV it again.--KoberTalk 17:31, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Btw, there is a big Anti-Armenian group in Wikipedia and in Georgia as well, welcome to the group, you must receive another barnstar for you truly scholarily Anti-Armenian work! Thanks for all valuable suggestion to make it more NPOV, it is my primary goal. Steelmate 17:37, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Ha-ha... So now I'm also anti-Armenian? Can you please provide any example of my "anti-Armenian" scholarship? --KoberTalk 17:41, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Let's stop this baby talk, the material that you are representing has bias against armenians. This shouldn't be that way. The truth is in the middle, and only by representing both views we can see the reality. I am glad we have made a pretty good article that describes atrocities in that war. Let now the reader decide and judge. I am against any wars and any inhumane acts. So the more truely we describe the ugliness of the situation the more it will prevent wars in the future I think. Steelmate 17:48, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm... And I'm pretty much sure that the current version of the article reads more like a Gothic story than a decent encyclopedic entry. It was your choice, though.--KoberTalk 17:53, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
It has now all the main points, we can arrange the stylistics and add more details later. By the way which article as a good example of description of military organization you can represent for consideration of stylistical rewrite? Steelmate 17:59, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Armenians "largely supported the Abkhazians"

If that were the case then why did the Abkhaz kill Sumbat Saakian? It's clear that the Armenians were on both sides during the conflict. Even the AGBU article said that the Armenian community was "divided" by the war. -- Aivazovsky (talk) 23:30, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually they also killed, for example, Raul Eshba who was ethnic Abkhaz (considering him a traitor, I presume). There were people of all ethnicities supporting (and even fighting on) both sides. Numerous sources (see links below) show, nevertheless, that most of Armenians supported the Abkhaz. Alæxis¿question? 10:01, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Generally, what the sources tell us is that ethnic Armenians and Russians were predominately neutral at the begining of the war but then predominately supported the Abkhaz later on due to excessive heavy-handedness of the Georgian Forces. Sumbat Saakian was killed presumably because he was considered part of the former Georgian regime in Abkhazia. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 00:06, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Aivazovsky's observation is correct and Sahakian was not the only Armenian killed, tortured or expelled by the separatists. But it is not so easy to prove anything to some of our colleagues. The issue was extensively discussed on Talk:War in Abkhazia. Even the Bagramyan Battalion was perceived as a threat by the Abkhaz ethnocratic regime. There were a series of clashes between this formation and Abkhaz-Chechen units in 1994. --KoberTalk 06:50, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, as per Kober, please see Talk:War in Abkhazia especially some of the excellent sources provided by user:Alaexis here and here.
Dear Aivazovsky, there were Armenians fighting on the Georgian side, mainly from Tbilisi and Javakheti. Saakian was the representative of Armenian community in Abkhazia (he was also a minister in the Plenum). He was killed due to his condemnation of Bagramian battalion and appealing to Armenians who were fighting on Abkhaz side to maintain neutrality. Raul was not also only Abkhaz who was killed. Timur Achba, Dr Malkhaz Chirikba, brothers Avizba and i don't mentions many ordinary Abkhaz who were killed because of being either helping Georgians (hiding people or taking them out of Abkhazia), protesting against the war or refusing to side with separatists. But as for your question Aviazovsky, yes there were number of Armenians fighting on the Georgian side. Iberieli (talk) 22:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Quotes removal

What is the reason for quote removal? Now this article has no quotes at all. Compare to how many quotes are in article on Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_Abkhazia which this article links to. I believe those two articles need to be balanced. Steelmate (talk) 16:26, 3 February 2008 (UTC)