Talk:Avro Vulcan

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Contents

[edit] Operation Black Buck

http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/types/uk/avro/vulcan/Vulcan.htm

The Operation Black Buck page says that Vulcan 597 also reached the Falklands [Black Buck Six] whereas here it says only 607 got there. Anyone know which is correct?

[edit] Crew Numbers

According to the tables on the right of the page and other sites i have found both aircraft had a crew of 5 but under miscellaneous entries there is a report of an accident where "5 of the 7 crew were killed". Can someone confirm this? Gfad1 18:08, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Knowing the inside of a Vulcan cockpit fairly well, there is only space for the normal crew of five. If a Vulcan was to carry two further people, they would most like have to stand for the entire flight. Personally, I'd suggest it was mistaken reporting somewhere along the lines. Perhaps the rear three crew (who didn't have ejector seats) were killed and the pilot and co-pilot were able to eject. --Pvtparts 02:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

The normal crew of the Vulcan was indeed five. When it was scheduled to land away from base, one or two crew chiefs were carried. In the rear cockpit were fixed stowage boxes either side which had safety harness fitted. These were used for the 6th and 7th seat members. Rather uncomfortable for long trips. The crew chief would spend quite some time standing on the ladder between the two pilots so he could see out of the windscreen. (Crewchief)

[edit] Now only 19 Vulcans?

"There are 21 Vulcans still relatively intact at air museums around the world."

Someone bought the Vulcan which was a gate guardian at Blackpool Airport, but it proved to be too badly corroded to be moved, so today it was broken up for scrap on the spot by one of those building-demolishers' long-reach concrete-crunchers that has a mouth like a Tyrannosaurus's. Anthony Appleyard 23:45, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

"==Now only 20 Vulcans?=="

Sadly 603 was broken up late last year. Many usable parts were taken for use on XH558. 603 Had previously been restored and maintained by a team of volunteers, and had been thought a likely candidate to be made air-worthy again.

(Insert rant about "BAE Systems ...useless jerks who'll be first against the wall when the revolution comes." Here)

194.129.249.111 13:59, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

603 does still exist, the airframe still sits at BAe Woodford, however most of the parts have been removed, and the airframe is expected to be removed in the near future due to corrosion. At what point do we count the aircraft as "deceased"?
WARlrus 17:21, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Engines

Is it really true that the B1 versions had up to 54,000 lbs of thrust per engine, whereas the later ones only had 17,000 lbs, i.e. about 1/3rd? It doesn't seem much of a "development". Maybe someone has confused thrust per engine with total thrust? Carl w 20:42, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

  • B1. Olympus 101 11000lb, Olympus 102 12000lb, Olympus 104 13500lb. 101 fitted to early aircraft. 102 fitted to later aircraft and modified to 104 standard on overhaul. Suriving aircraft with 104 engines modified to B1A standard. B1 XA895 is often quoted as converted to a B1A but it was used for trials and was not completed to B1A standard - it retained Olympus 101s and was not rewired to enable carriage of Yellow Sun.
  • B2. XH533 Olympus 200 16000lb, remainder Olympus 201/202 17000lb or 301 20000lb (for a period derated to 18000lb). 201 became 202 on fitting of Rotax rapid air starter.(XJ784 11:24, 10 February 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Introduction paragraph correction

"The Vulcan was part of the RAF's V bomber force, which fulfilled the rule of nuclear deterrence..."

this should read: "The Vulcan was part of the RAF's V bomber force, which fulfilled the role of nuclear deterrence..."

[edit] Aerial firefighting?!

"Some retired Vulcan aircraft are now used for the role of aerial firefighting."

Where did this information come from?! (I wish it >was< true, mind you...) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.202.70.226 (talk • contribs) 19:15, 10 May 2006

[edit] ...apart from the propaganda value ...

I feel very uneasy about this statement. It seems somhow out of place here, being more relevant to politics. While its true that only one bomb on the first Black Buck raid hit the runway, that statement needs to be qualified, because the Vulcan was on a heading that took it at right angles to the runway, and a hit in those circumstances is most unlikely, as the crew would know. One purpose of the raids were to encourage the Argentine forces to switch on their radar so that they could then be targeted with anti-radiation missiles also carried by the Vulcan. The disabled radar would then be exploited by carrier-based aircraft. It seems that this cat-and-mouse game between the Vulcan and the air defence radar was a prime raison d'etre for these raids. Another principal reason for the raids was to demonstrate to the Argentines (before the naval task force arrived in the area) that the British forces had a very long reach, and also to begin the process of damaging their morale and fighting spirit; and we all saw how well that was achieved with Port Stanley being surrendered with hardly a shot fired by its garrison. Of course there are some who rejoice in the lack of a bomb hit on the runway, but then there are always those who won't let the truth get in the way of a good story. This isn't the place for political games. Brian.Burnell 16:09, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The factual result of the RAF's long distance Vulcan mission(s) was one bomb crater on the runway. Although two anti-radar missles were fired no Argentinian radar locations were destroyed. While no one would deny the logistic achievement in completing the operations and their political impact, the fact is that material damage was negligible.

'Political games' I'm afraid was exactly what the Black Buck missions were; Mention could also be made of the inter-service rivalry between the RAF and Royal Navy over the Falklands operations, with the former determined not to let the latter 'run the show'. A wholly organised and co-ordinated RAF operation was deemed paramount to show the public (and more importantly the politicians holding the purse strings in the post-Falklands defence budgets) that the Air Force could contribute something to the conflict. Harryurz 09:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Clearly you have missed the point. Not all military operations are concerned primarily with material damage. Inducing fear and apprehension in an opponent has a long military tradition and history is littered with examples. One comes to mind; the Allied bombing raids on the Calais area in the months preceding the invasion of Normandy on D-Day. Those raids contributed nothing materially to the success of D-Day: the raids did not put one bomb on the Normandy beach defences. But they helped persuade the Nazi war machine to focus on an area remote from the intended landing sites, and very many Allied soldiers are alive today because of those raids.
So there was only one bomb hit on the Stanley runway that wasn't capable of operating fast jets anyway. So what! That hardly matters when set against the other outcomes, one of which was to persuade the radar operators to leave their radar switched off for fear of having it disabled. Radar switched off is as useful as a chocolate teapot, or even as useful as a destroyed radar set. At that point, when the Argentines were radar-blind a Sea Harrier strike went in; which rather disproves the assertion that inter-service rivally had a meaningful role in Black Buck.
If there is any real hard evidence of behind-the-scenes political manipulation by the RAF then let us all see it. However, in the very nature of these alleged 'behind-the-scenes' events, no one who wasn't themseves 'behind-the-scenes' can possibly know. This isn't the place for juvenile political point-scoring; and it can be a two-edged sword. Some of us have also 'been there - done that', didn't like the smell, and don't want to go there again. Brian.Burnell 12:15, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Reference for the inter-service rivalry see "Sea Harrier Over the Falklands: A Maverick at War" (Cassell Military Paperbacks S.) by Commander "Sharkey" Ward ; although the account is very much a personal one from the view of a senior Harrier Squadron commander it does have a breadth of vision regarding the often hindering tactical and strategic contraints the task force were put under in 1982. Thanks Harryurz 14:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pic under specifications

Is that some sort of fuel tank in the bomb bay?GraemeLeggett 15:55, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes it is a fuel tank. I'll find the dimly remembered source and post it here shortly. Brian.Burnell 00:06, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Found some sources. Try: [1]and click on Vulcan history. And [2] and similar tanks shown in a super Victor pic in the book by Andrew Brookes: Handley Page Victor. Published 1988 by Ian Allen ISBN 0-7110-1803-0 page 101. Brian.Burnell 01:13, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NB

This article doesn't seem to describe the differences between the MkI, MkIb and MkII.

Also the early ones (eg 617 squadron) were painted in anti-radiation white. (and polished by hand using "Wadpol" for Farnborough below - no mean feat)

There was a later tour of New Zealand where one caught the "step" at the beginning of the runway and was stranded for a year while it was decided whether it was cheaper to ship it back, repair it on the spot or scrap it.

There was another event at Farnborough during the period of the "Four minute warning" when some MkIs were converted to four engine start. Although they were kept fully armed during this period, the problem was the time needed to start them up. Normally this was done using a PE set for the first engine, which then started the others in turn. Ground supply connectors were provided for each engine to which dozens of lead acid batteries on a bomb trolley were plugged in. This was what was demonstrated at Farnborough and they still keep showing the television news footage from time to time. Something of a gimmick perhaps, but it became impoosible to do with the Mk2's as they were air started using a Rover gas turbine, with an on-board Palouste if a ground supply was not available.

  • I can't speak for the early days but during the 1970's it wasn't possible to start the engines from the Rover AAPU. They were started as a rule using a Palouste Trolley (the Palouste wasn't onboard). An outboard engine was started, run up to 80% RPM and then the air was cross fed from that engine to start the other engines. The other method was to use the 'Rapid Start' system which used compressed air and fuel fed into a combustion chamber attached to the Rotax starter on the engine. Again the started engine was run up to 80% and etc... Although the system had been designed to enable all four engines to be started at once (there was a 'Mass Start' button on the cockpit engine start panel) it wasn't used that way - possibly went out with the end of the 'Four minute' days. Gawthorpe Dave 09:05, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Sorry I got the Rover and the Palouste the wrong way round. Memory you know. Chevin 09:45, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Many 'Paloustes' were actually STADs built by H & S Aviation. Paloustes [French Turbomeca design] were built by Blackburn. If a Palouste or STAD were available, then memory serves we would start all engines using it. If no trolley was available, then one engine would be rapid started, run at 80% and air cross fed to the other engines for starting in turn using the engine air switches. You could run the rapid-started engine at 93% and start the others simultaneously. Mass rapids were not performed in my time but it was common enough practice on scrambles - if all rapids were serviceable - to rapid start the engines at one second intervals. I believe the Rover AAPP had originally been able to generate starting air but had been disconnected. The Rotax 'rapid' starter was developed for the Olympus 301. 201s became 202s when fitted with the Rotax starter. XJ784 16:51, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

XH558 (ex Waddington?) has this morning received an anonymous donation after appeals on BBC East Midlands TV were supplemented by one on BBC Breakfast News and it will be restored to air worthiness.

Chevin 08:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Keys

Does anyone hav a source for "Pilots were supposed to sign out the keys for the Vulcan prior to a mission, this proved to be inconvenient until they discovered that it was possible to obtain spare keys from Halfords, a car spares shop"? I'm not sure if it's really worthy of inclusion anyway, but if it's there it should be sourced. --Guinnog 09:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't remember any keys. Perhaps they were kept with the golden rivet. Possibly the people who are restoring XH558 would know. Chevin 15:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, I've deleted it for now. --Guinnog 15:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
There were indeed keys for the aircraft. All crewchiefs (at least on 27 Sqn for the 8 years I was on it) carried their own but the aircraft was always open when the crew arrived. (The key was used to lock the handle that opened the entrance door.)Gawthorpe Dave 09:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

Added a breif about the RNZAF painting NZ roundels on a Vulcan they repaired - don't know if this is that interresting for others, I quite liked the story. Also, not sure whether the roundels were the modern Kiwi type, or a silver fern in red centre variety, (the Ohakea museum has a note asking for a photo of the repainted aircraft). Winstonwolfe 05:40, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I remember it coming back to us, but I don't remember any NZ roundels. Perhaps they got told to take them off again Chevin 08:44, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Performance

Should something about it's quite staggering agility, esp at high altitude. be added? I've read some sources that state that at operation altitudes it could actually outmanouver contemporary fighters.Hdw 18:03, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

For something that size, it was pretty nimble at near-zero altitude too! I'm just reading an excellent account of the use of Vulcans in the Falklands War in the 1980s (it's called Vulcan 607, by Rowland White) which should provide some quotes I could add, and give the reference for. I'll suggest some on here once I've picked a few out :) – Kieran T (talk | contribs) 18:07, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Seeing one do low level aerobatics over the airfield at about chimney height one Christmas standby (strictly forbidden really!) was something not easily forgotten. Chevin 19:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I read Vulcan 607 recently. It's very good, despite its endorsement by Jeremy Clarkson! --Guinnog 19:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How many built?

Some confusion here about how many were built. The infobox says 134. Near the bottom of the article it says 138. Adding up the article's figures for each mark (and ignoring conversions) I get 110. Can someone clarify and correct please. Emeraude 11:52, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


  • I will check the figures again and then update. I suspect I have put the B.2A as conversions instead of builds. Unfortunately the total number built does vary dependiing on source. This is due to nobody apparrently being sure how many fatigue test-rig airframes were built. Gawthorpe Dave 10:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)


  • Have checked the numbers again and updated. Was only able to find serial numbers for 44 B.1's but have left as 45 as this is the most quoted number. Removed B.2A number of conversions as there is a discrepancy in numbers between sources - 28 and 33 being given.


  • Prototypes VX 770 777 (2), B1/B1A XA889-913, XH475-483, 497-506, 532 (45), B2 XH533-539, XH554-563, XJ780-784, XJ823-825, XL317-320, XL359-361, XL384-392, XL425-427, XL443-446, XM569-576, 594, 595, [596 fatigue test] 597-612, 645-657 (87+1 fts). Total 134 (135). Other FTSs without a serial may have existed. The Mk2A Vulcan is a myth. The designations B.Mk2 (Blue Steel) and B.Mk.2 (Free Fall) were sometimes adopted. XH539 was used for Blue Steel trials. XL317-320, 359-361, 392, XL425-427, XL443-446, XM569-576, 594 & 595 (25) were delivered to Scampton as B2(BS). The remainder were delivered free fall. XL384-390 (7) were converted from FF to BS and replaced XL445, 446, XM569-573 (7) which were converted to FF. Total number of B2 aircraft that could carry Blue Steel at one time or another = 33. After Blue Steel was phased out, all surviving B2(BS) converted to FF. B2(BS) XM574-576, 594, 595 were delivered with Olympus 301s. XL384-390 were re-engined with Olympus 301 on conversion to B2(BS). Remainder of B2(BS) fitted with Olympus 201 or 202. (XJ784 11:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC))

[edit] You Tube Videos

Several people, including me, have psoted video clips of Vulcans on You Tube and Veoh. One of mine can be found at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lcEov55rd4

Some help required for this - which engine is being tested here? I have said it is the Olympus but it could be the Tornado RB1999 because of the twin intakes. But the clip is in B&W so it suggest an earlier test, maybe even the Conway. Just love the afterburner coming on as the beastie flies past.

PS What about the rumour that the Argentine AF was to buy surplus RAF Vulcans?

Royzee 10:39, 24 February 2007 (UTC) Feb 24 07

Vulcan XA894 flight testing BOl22R (Olympus 320) for TSR2 at Farnborough in 1962. http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/other_photographers/894_farnborough_1.htm XJ784 13:53, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Popluar culture section

I removed the popular culture section, as i deemed that it contained very "in passing" references to the airplane. USer:Bzuk then restored the section, with the following edit summary: (restored section- this is an iconic aircraft and the "popular culture" references are entirely appropriate)

Rather than just removing it again, I invite people to have a discussion here at the Talk Page. My main motive for removing the section was that the references were quite tangential. I would feel different if it was, for example, a film or a book, that heavily or primarily dealt with this aircraft. That this aircraft is seen in a James Bond movie, or that a spaceship in a TV series is given the same serial number, I feel is not really relevant, the link is "too weak" if you like. Dr bab 11:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC).

In response, the editor above has a track record of removing "popular culture" sections or articles. I don't share the reasoning behind the abject removal of these submissions and I know that there is a current discussion regarding this controversy, see Popular culture. His assertion that the inclusion of the Avro Vulcan in the James Bond actioneer "Thunderball" is "tangential" is belied by the fact that the Avro Vulcan is the key to the plot as it contained two nuclear bombs that were being hijacked. The film's producers went to great efforts to obtain the aircraft and any viewer of the film will note its role is not incidental but crucial to the film's authenticity. In the original novel, a fictional bomber is identified but the film producers noted that the Vulcan had an immediate recognition factor and opted for its use rather than a studio "mock-up." I have researched the use of the Avro Vulcan XH558 for the BBC2 television series, Hyperdrive where the spaceship HMS Camden Lock bears the serial number XH558. The set and prop designer, model maker Andrew Glazebrook is quoted that,"Its registration number XH558 is actually that of the Royal Air Force's 'Avro Vulcan' bomber and was suggested by the show's writers Andy Riley and Kevin Cecil." This direct involvement with the Avro Vulcan and its role as a military aircraft is clearly connected to its science-fiction counterpart.
Irregardless of the arguments that can be posed in defence of the popular culture submissions in the Avro Vulcan article is the fact that sub-group WPAir has already dealt with the topic in length and has resolved that popular culture sections are appropriate and do exist in this form within many substantive articles including the following: Supermarine Spitfire, Lockheed P-38 Lightning, Amelia Earhart and Charles Lindbergh just to name a few in the many aviation and aviation-related Wikipedia articles.
My final comments deal with the "drop in" factor of some editors who have "causes" or "areas of concern" that they champion. I have seen Wikipedia editors that are only interested in removing questionable images, or have set up a page or article that links to their own published work and then insert "ad-promos" throughout Wikipedia articles or even some editors who have no interest in the relevance of the original research but grab onto that one issue that they are passionate about. I believe (but I may be wrong) that this is the case in this recent deletion of the popular culture section in a truly iconic aircraft. I noted that the editor who made the original removal had never contributed to the article but made the statement the he/she knows that the submissions were trivial and tangential and had been "weak" although the issue had not been discussed previously in the discussion page. The usual or "standard" to introducing a major deletion or change in the article in question is to discuss it, which is being done now (after the fact). FYI, I have not added the original entries in the popular culture section and in cursory research, identified that the original posters had done their research well and had identified a link to the Avro Vulcan in contemporary cultural references. When I had seen that the cultural references were not trivial (the "trivia" section, however is a concern as most of the Avro Vulcan entries there can be incorporated within the body of an essentially formal encyclopedic work) and that the editors were genuinely adding to the information base, then there should not be a problem with popular culture being retained. IMHO Bzuk 12:34, 23 April 2007 (UTC).
First of all, let me admit that I am opposed to popular culture sections in general. They are not always a bad thing, but far too often they consist of very trivial and tangential references, and tend to grow larger than the actual article they are in. My concern here was, as I stated before, the appearances of the aircraft seemed rather "in passing", and not the main focus of the quoted popular work. As an example: "Mentioning that the aircraft in Top Gun are F-14's seem appropriate, since that film is about flying and the aircraft play such a major role. Mentioning what make Tom Cruise's motorbike is in the same movie, I feel is too tangential".
As Bzuk mentions, the relevance of "in popular culture" sections, articles and items is a matter of much debate, and finding an agreement is often difficult. Some people might agree with me on the Top Gun example above, some would say that Top Gun should not even be linked to at the F-14 page, some would not only include the make of mr. Cruise's motorcycle, but also the brand of his jeans. Where to draw the line here is difficult, as there are no existing general guidelines.
With respect to the "dropping by and deleting our work" comments: "In popular culture" sections tend to act as magnets for people wishing to add all sorts of useless trivia. Since the section contained, in my opinion, references to the aircraft that was rather vague, I decided to delete the whole thing. When the popular culture section is not there, it is that much harder for people to start adding to it.
However, with vigilant editors like Bzuk monitoring this page, I probably had nothing to fear, as meaningless trivia would no doubt be kept out of this article, and the popular culture section kept small enough not to dominate the article. Dr bab 16:02, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

<deindent>I seem to recall seeing them on Dr Who (A rather obscure reference, I know). But made all the more amusing by the Brigadier's insistance that the only way to deal with the giant alien plant before it destroyed the house and got away was to hit the house with several V-bombers worth of incendiery...Narson 14:01, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alien / Aliens

Is there any evidence for Vulcans being used as set-dressing in the first 1979 film "Alien"? The APC controls from the 2nd film "Aliens" are quite clear. Any appearance in the first film though would mean a rather earlier date for a scrapped Vulcan. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:55, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Bits of surplus aircraft equipment particularly control panels and the like have been used by the film industry for a number of years. So unless they used a complete real Vulcan the the use of odd bits and pieces is hardly notable. MilborneOne (talk) 12:18, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Avro finally falls to the bulldozer

Avro finally falls to the bulldozer

[edit] "Recently Destroyed Examples"

I think we may have a minor NPOV violation here, but I'm not too sure. The word "destroyed" seems inappropriatly harsh - something like scrapped would sound more neutral, but I'm not sure if I'm just biased against the edit on the grounds of the edit summary "Added "Recently Destroyed Examples"... F***ing Bew Britain and it's "comittment to herritage"" left by user 194.129.249.111 (talk • contribs • info • WHOIS). What do other users think. --GW_SimulationsUser Page | Talk 21:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

With hindsight the edit summary was NOT neutral. I defend the use of the word "Destroyed" as neither aircraft now exists in any immediate sense, although parts of 603 will be incorporated into some of the remaining survivors, the actual airframes that for all usefull purposes were XM603 and XL391 no longer exist. The term "Detroyed" is no less neutral than the term "survivor".
This is incorrect, the airframe of 603 DOES still exist at Woodford, it can still be seen from a nearby road! All parts have been stripped from it, and the airframe is expected to be scrapped soon WARlrus 17:23, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
I have to say that I find the term "former survivor" a contradition in terms. I suggest that this section is renamed to "Aircraft scrapped from preservation" to distinguish it from aircraft that were lost in service or scrapped on their exit from service. There are a number of other vulcans (Including the last of the B1s) that were scrapped after entering preservation. 194.129.249.111 12:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
How far back does a list of former survivors go? I am not sure that the recently scrapped aircraft should appear, the list of survivors should stand as it is. It could be a slippery slope into listing the history and fate of every example. MilborneOne 14:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm only suggesting that we list the aircraft that were scrapped _after_ they entered a preservation scheme. I believe they are relevant to the list of aircraft still in preservation as it illustrates that those aircraft are not necessarily preserved with any certainty. Even XH558 has had a close call!
I don't suggest that the fate of each constructed aircraft be traced, (This was done in Tim Lamming's Book BTW) Even if I were, very few vulcans were built compared to other military planes. 194.129.249.111 15:26, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I have added aircraft to the article that had in the past been preserved and/or on public display - not that many but sadly gone. MilborneOne 17:52, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tailless or not

In aeronautics, the term "tailless" indicates an aeroplane lacking any horizontal stabiliser (back or front). It makes no reference to any vertical stabiliser. The Vulcan is a tailless design in the proser sense. -- Steelpillow 21:28, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry in aeronautics tailless refers to both vertical and horiontal surfaces, the B-2 is tailless the Vulcan is not and has never been refered to as tailless. I will remove the cat back and put the article back to as was. MilborneOne 21:32, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Think about it. The term "tailless delta" is widely used (not opinion, fact - google it if you don't beileve me). Delta-winged craft without vertical fins are very rare. The term "tailless delta" refers to a delta-winged craft with no horizontal stabiliser, with or without a fin. If you still do not believe me, then we need some sort of arbitration. -- Steelpillow 21:36, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but you are using a tailless cat not a tailless delta cat, the article already has a delta wing cat. MilborneOne 21:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, a tailless delta is both a delta and tailless, right? The alternative would be to create a 'Tailless delta' cat, but that would lead on to endless combination cats such as 'tailless cropped delta', 'tailless swept wing', 'canard delta', 'canard swept wing', 'canard straight wing' and on and on and on. I feel it best to just plonk each page in the relevant basic cats. But I guess this is the wrong place for such a discussion. -- Steelpillow 22:04, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wingweb.co.uk

I run a site titled Air Vectors that covers military aircraft and gets cited here and there on Wikipedia. I don't normally touch wikipedia articles other than to correct typos and the like, but I just found out about a site named "Wingweb.co.uk" which is also cited here and there on Wikipedia (for example in this article) ... but whose aviation articles are largely or entirely downloads of Air Vectors articles -- advertized as "original content & images" though they also lifted many of my photos and artwork.

I have no fuss to make. I just want to make sure the Wikipedia community knowns that Wingweb.co.uk is a ripoff operation. Cheers / MrG 4.225.208.126 02:52, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up, Greg. FWIW Bzuk 16:11, 7 November 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Popular Culture

Just noticed that Bzuk has added back in two bits in the popular culture section. On the Alien entry I would just like to know why Vulcan rudder pedals are notable and the comment kept. Not sure about the Hyperdrive bit either not even a small bit just using a serial from one sounds like fancruft that is already mentioned in the Hyperdrive article. Not exactly a mainstream popular television program. Any comments please ? MilborneOne (talk) 20:40, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Not my original entry but the issue was discussed previously and I was mainly restoring an agreed-upon submission. Since in the reference sources that are available there had been an indication of how the Avro Vulcan and its iconic nature was reflected in the specific use of the reclaimed or surplus parts in creating movie/television models, it was a clear connection to the Avro Vulcan. In each case, the Vulcan was utilized as an homage to a "glorious" past as the Vulcan represented a watershed in aerospace development that was being recognized. FWIW, large sections of Vulcans were used in creating a "feel" in the models, I just mentioned some note/quotes to give more detail. Bzuk (talk) 20:50, 22 December 2007 (UTC).
Re-using the rudder pedals and some scrapped bits does not appear to be notable. Aircraft scrap have been used for tv and film props for years. Perhaps we need a list of rudder pedals etc seen on Scrapyard Challenge. A homage to glorious past just sound like fans of a little watched BBC2 programme trying to raise its profile. OK I have made my point we will just have to agree to disagree. MilborneOne (talk) 21:15, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
As I said earlier, I have no abiding interest in the statement, I was just trying to resurrect what I considered a well-meaning submission. I agree that reusing bits and pieces of a salvaged airframe is not notable, but what is meaningful is that the Vulcan in both cases was chosen to be remembered. I can't comment on the BBC2 program although it probably wasn't that popular as you say, what was important was that the Avro Vulcan was being memorialized. Bzuk (talk) 00:56, 23 December 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Maiden flight

The article states that the Vulcan first flew on 1952-08-31, but my references give the maiden flight as on 1952-08-30. (Checking in Jane's Encyclopedia of Aviation, ISBN 1 85170 324 1; Air Power, ISBN 0 7026 0047 4; The World's Greatest Aircraft ISBN 0-7858-1185-0.) Where does the date of the 31st come from?

83.250.197.97 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 09:35, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

The article's first flight date of 31 August 1952 is not supported by a cited reference, so if you have a reference that you can cite then please do change the date and cite the reference! - Ahunt (talk) 12:09, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Provided reference for 30 August. --Cheesy Mike (talk) 14:53, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Super work - you beat me to looking it up! - Ahunt (talk) 19:45, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Accidents and Incidents.

The table is missing two major Vulcan incidents.

Val Venthams Aircraft which caught fire prior to takeoff at Scampton and burned at the end of the runway in the early to Mid 60's. All survived.

Pete Tait's Aircraft of IX(B) Squadron which had an engine blow up on climbing from a roller at Cottesmore. The aircraft crashed on its back in a field some way off the end of the runway. The pilots ejected. Only the pilots survived. Incident occured in the mid 60's.

From memory only No references offered

86.141.188.248 (talk) 17:29, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Three losses that not mentioned in the article

  • XM600 Crashed near Spilsby following engine bay fire 17 Jan 77
  • XM601 Crashed on approach to RAF Coningsby 7 Oct 64
  • XM604 Crashed near Cottesmore following loss of control during overshoot 30 Jan 68

Please note that accidents and incidents are only for notable accidents which would normally include those that are fatal or have something else of note, it is not the intention to list every hull loss for every aircraft type. Your Scampton incident above for example if all the crew survived would probably not be notable. I would agree that if your Cottesmore incident involved the loss of the rear crew then it should be added - just need to find a reference source. MilborneOne (talk) 17:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC) Try "The Vulcan Story" by im Laming. ISBN: 1-85409-148-4 Palmiped (talk) 18:07, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes looked at The Vulcan Story but it lists fates of all the aircraft and it does not give detailed info on the accidents or what happened to the crew. MilborneOne (talk) 18:34, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Check external links in main article

Check links Palmiped (talk) 23:21, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] XH558

It appears that every move of XH558 is notable and needs to be included is it time the fine old lady had an article of her own as this article is a bit unbalanced as more and more information about her is added. Any thoughts MilborneOne (talk) 11:30, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with MilborneOne. Restoration of XH558 has proved successful and it will continue to generate news that is almost independent of the Avro Vulcan aircraft type. I would be in favour of a new article, possibly called Restoration of Avro Vulcan XH558. Dolphin51 (talk) 11:54, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I am also in favour of a new article about XH558 as it will no doubt make further news, and it would be interesting to have more detail on its story. Poltair (talk) 12:05, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I also support XH558 as a separate article. It's notable as a Vulcan example, it's equally notable as a major resto. project in the museum space. I think I'd keep the name simple though, maybe Avro Vulcan XH558.
I'd even be well-inclined towards a separate article on the survivors in general (see my user page for some notes and Google Maps links.)
Andy Dingley (talk) 12:08, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree - it should be split into a separate article. The aircraft is noteworthy on its own, but it is starting to overwhelm the history of the whole type in this article. - Ahunt (talk) 12:16, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

New article Avro Vulcan XH558 created - could do with a tidy up and some of her early RAF history added. MilborneOne (talk) 20:38, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks MilborneOne. This is a good arrangement. The new article looks very good. Dolphin51 (talk) 22:08, 29 April 2008 (UTC)