Talk:Avoidant personality disorder

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Avoidant personality disorder article.
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I'm not sure Kantor's book should be referenced here, at least not without a caveat. Most of the cases he discusses seem to be about what we'd call "commitment-phobic" behaviours rather than the more broad spectrum of AvPD, i.e. general avoidance of social interaction, and the problems this produces.--Eyeresist 01:34, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Novel Research #2

As I mentioned in the Borderline Personality Disorder discussion page, I'm doing some research for a novel I'm writing, with a character who I thought had BDP. Having read this article on Avoidant Personality Disorder though, it seems like my character is more of an AvPD than a BPD. Thanks Wikipedia! However, I think those with AvPD share some similarities with BPDs. It's interesting stuff.

- Geelin 14:08, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

If someone can please refer me to some professionals in Sydney, Australia, whom I can speak to about AvPD for my novel, that would be most appreciated. Can anyone assist me?

Cheers, Geelin 08:15, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Social Phobia vs. Avoidant Personality Disorder

Do all Social Phobics have Avoidant Personality Disorder? If not, how do you confidently distinguish the two? This article's discription of APD sounds like things that go on in the mind of a clinically socially anxious person.--J. Daily 19:05, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this is puzzling me too. What is the difference between Social Anxiety Disorder and AvPD? By the way, does that 'hello baby' belong in the mnemonic section?! Khirad 05:25, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
The article says "Research suggests that people with avoidant personality disorder, in common with social phobics, excessively monitor their own internal reactions when they are involved in social interaction. However, unlike social phobics they also excessively monitor the reactions of the people with whom they are interacting." I would appreciate it if anyone could tell me if this is accurate, or if there are any other differences. --DearPrudence 17:57, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I was diagnosed with AvPD nearly 6 years ago and I've done a lot research on AvPD and Social Phobia. From what I've learned, the difference is very little, but basically the feeling of anxiety in AvPD is a lot more severe. I had AvPD so bad that I couldn't even apply for a job or have any friends. It was to the point where I had to either ask for help or commit suicide. Fortunately, I sought help. I'm so much better now...have several friends, going to college, and have a job... So, yeah, that's my two cents. Ioxmo 02:43, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I think this article should make clear that, contrarily to some other disorders related to social interaction, a person suffering from AvPD is not happy with avoiding social interaction and staying alone, and yearns to somehow find the strength to communicate with other people and let them know her true self and be appreciated just like anybody else. I was diagnosed with AvPD myself and by no means does it mean that I will not attend a party or any social gathering. I actually seek such gatherings, each time hoping that it will be the day when I will really talk to friends who will be there and whom I love. Rano—The preceding unsigned comment was added by USER NAME OR IP (talk • contribs).

I really do like it when the discussion becomes circular and returns to the subject with an insight or formulation of a need to be addressed in the article. However, I also feel the need to stay on task, to be concise, and perhaps limit the personal confessional side a bit. Many of us also have experiences to share but, in my opinion, refraining from overdoing it will help the work of editing this article by staying on task. Personal talk pages might be a better place.Bearpa 03:19, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the main difference is that one is a phobia and one is a personality disorder. So basically APD is when you have a certian personality that cuases you to avoid social situations and other symptoms as well such as feeling inferior to other, having a fear of rejection, which is not usually present in social phobia.

Social anxiety is not a phobia. It is an avoidance meachanism that is driven by an overly sensitive instict toward preservation. Avoidant personality disorder is a characterological dysfunction.
The first is instinctual, the second psycho-social wired. Although the descriptions of many things in the psych pages here would appear to suggest similarity between two divergent diagnositic categories (because much of what is written is not done so by professionals), this being one of them, the two things are night and day. --DashaKat 19:59, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
"psycho-social wired" -- care to elaborate on this notion? You suggesting that one is more biologically rooted than the other? AvPD looks like general social anxiety disorder to me with more pervasive and more distorted negative cognitions. Can't a characterological dysfunction be such that it is geared toward an exaggerated preservation instinct? How do you distinguish which it really is when they look the same? DivisionByZer0 06:39, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
The reason you don't see the distinction is, judging by your contributions, you're a mathemetician, not a social scientist. And no, that's not what I'm suggesting. I'm saying the biological roots are different, the manner in which those biological roots inform development are, thus, different, and, although the behavior looks the same, the foundation for the behavior is different.
That should have read "psycho-socially wired". Characterological dysfunction that has its roots in social interaction (Paranoid PD, Borderline PD, etc.) is primarily a learned behavior. It is a distortion of interior development that is informed by a biological predisposition to anxiety and/or depression. This predisposition is magnified by the attitudinal profile that an individual develops based on experience, which, in turn, contribute to the development of the filters that we all use to color our perception. In the case of someone with a personality disorder, you can think of him/her as someone with his/her filters permanently out of focus.
GAD or simple generalized anxiety has its roots in fight-or-flight. It is a hard-wired, instinctual, and primal reaction that has, itself, gotten distorted. Again, the behavior looks the same, but it's the precursors and antecedents that cause the two things to be differentiated.
Also, you can't equate a personality disorder with a behavioral disorder. It's apples and oragnes. In this case, it's more like oranges and tangerines, becuase we are looking at two things that appear the same. Think of it like American football versus Canadian football...the behaviors are the smae, but the rules differ enough that they are, ultimately, entirely different activities. --DashaKat 11:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Flattering, but unfourtunately I'm someone who just likes both math and social science, however more experience with the former. You seem to be knowledgable on this topic -- do you have any sources I could look at which address AvPD and how to treat it? I'm trying to get a "correct" diagnosis for myself -- my psychiatrist insists that the differentiation between AvPD and SAD is mainly a matter of degree of impairment. When I read the description of SAD and AvPD both seem to "fit" what I experience to some degree. If you have some sources which you wouldn't mind sharing, my email is this username at hotmail.com. 68.37.138.139 18:55, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
OK...I'm starting this post with a DISCLAIMER, as I am always slamming people for keeping these forums about the article...but, you made a request that would leave me professionally remiss if I dismissed it. So, here are some references that may be helpful. Some of them are going to seem off-base in terms of topic, but...trust me...
  • Abusive Relationships Workbook
  • A Therapist's Guide to Personality Disorders
  • Distancing: A Guide to Avoidance and Avoidant Personality Disorder
  • Avoidant Personality Disorder Workbook (Aaron Beck...as in THE Aaron Beck - great stuff)
  • Workbook: Mastery of Your Anxiety and Worry
  • Co-dependent No More
  • Counter Dependence
  • Shadow Syndromes - great perspective on the mix/and match/not-quite-co-occurring nature of this stuff. --DashaKat 16:45, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Many thanks. I'm sharing your comments and sources with a social anxiety forum, in AvPD thread which has long since been idle. Should be helpful to all those who are nonw popping up saying "wow, I never thought something could so accurately describe the way I feel". Cheers. DivisionByZer0 05:32, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I can find the others but been unable to locate AvPD Workbook by Beck -- got an ISBN for it? 68.37.138.139 08:37, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


Division, while im not speaking against you or anyone with this disorder, people who are reading this and saying "hey I have that" are usually going to just be really awkward people who want to self-diagnose themselves with a disorder to explain away their own ineptitude. Just pointing it out. Now watch somebody with self-diagnosed APD delete this because it makes them mad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.188.240.123 (talk) 20:37, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussing citing format before providing the needed citation

It appears that the citations in the article are scholarly but not really very wikiupdated. So I propose that the format of citation in this article be converted to a more "linkful" one. I'm no expert on citation in wikipedia but I've seen other articles with external links which are more convenient to reference. However, I've just looked through the now recommended cite.php footnotes format extension (not the deprecated Footnote3 system), and I understand why there is an almost complete lack of external links cited and referenced. The system is quite a bit more intimidating, and the old Footnote3 format, which I was just getting the hang of, will someday soon be obsolete. So the author here chose to use an alternate method, which is acceptable according to one of the citing wikipages I've read. I propose that interested contributors discuss an appropriate re-citing to allow extensive external links. This could be either finding a willing cite.php adept to re-cite the present references, or one of the presently interested contributors changing over the present cites to Footnote3 so that it can be converted later, via a bot, also wielded by an adept. Interested parties please respond so we can all start thinking about this. Don't forget to use colons to indent your entries and please sign them so we all know who is saying what.

Now I want to add a citation that is marked "needed" in the article. By the way, this entry emphasises the above comments because some of the sources cited themselves offer a wealth of information as well as numerous corroborations and bibliographies, which enriches understanding. I had better create a new heading here so future editors can easily find this.Bearpa 18:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Entering needed citation

Found good article online with expansive documentation. This could cite to the end of the next sentence instead of where shown. I will try to cite in the APD article like the present author has, and enter the reference as shown in wiki:citing sources and templates:cite web. One problem is the length of the article on one text page, so in notes, I will give a location in the article. Might be helpful, might be overkill. Please offer suggestions.Bearpa 18:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, a couple of things came up for me during the edit:
  • there is no notes section to indicate the location of the specific passage in the cited article that supports the entry in wiki article. I will enter it here for any one who might like to refer to it: the first paragraph under the third heading (Treatment Provider Guidlines) in the second section (Treating the AvPD) of the article (link in references section of wiki article).
  • should we have a notes section? I noticed in the archives some comments added to another cited reference in the reference section (later removed for other reasons). That didn't seem so bad though - they were there with the source involved which connects the comments immediately. Anyway, thoughts?
Also, two new issues for me:
  • ABBREVIATION CORRECTION - I've done it myself. It's in the article intro. I'm becoming aware that APD is also the general abbreviation for Anti-social Personality Disorder and the clinical and academic sources seem to be using AvPD for Avoidant Personality Disorder. I think this is what should be used to avoid confusion.
  • I added a "citation needed" for the rest of the paragraph after my citation. I'm not sure, but this is almost OR insofar as, otherwise, an actual, reliable survey of websites would have to have been done, and rather thanspeaking for "the psychological community", this would have to become a verifiable fact. The conclusion, though, is probably obvious about the websites, since they repeat the treatment issue already referred to, though this seems somewhat redundant. A rewrite could reframe the thought, perhaps.
A greater issue though, perhaps, is the lack of complete attribution in the first two sections of the article. Does DSM-IV need to be cited if referred to in the article? What about the mnemonic? Certainly the first half of the Link with other disorders section is not cited. Probably deepening and broadening the entire article should be contemplated too (though I do appreciate how concise it is now). Anywho, more grist for the mill. Long-winded, I know. Apologies.Bearpa 01:12, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] To the "widow" unsigned post at the top of this page:

I wish to comment but there's a problem w/ your post that led me on a wild goose edit where I had to learn about reverts and undoing revert revisions (if that makes any sense at all). Anyway let me just copy an entry that was part of that ill-fated effort that might explain:

Sorry, I was not signed on when first appending the above unsigned signature (the posting was by Portillo on 30 September 2006). I'm getting an "editing a prior version" warning so that I'm worried I will unintentionally revert all later version (and entries?); if I do I will try to undo (not to sure of myself when it comes to the intricacies). If you'll notice, though, there are two equal sign (==) on only one side of the entry and there is no edit link (edit) in this post's section so there seems to have been a prob. w/the post, but I want to comment on this post. I hope I haven't flubbed things too much; not my intention. Live and learn. (Much chaos ensued when saved, but I'm OK now) What got me started here was that I really wanted to comment, to Portillo or any others, that this is a good question and I am curious as well, also about personality or anxiety disorders affecting those with long-term intrusive disease or medical conditions and/or long-term, chronic, or severe recurring pain. Anyone with experiences? Bearpa 04:03, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Now I am re-signing in realtime Bearpa 04:59, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

==There is no mention of ppl who feel socially inept because of physical reasons such as scars or deformities. What does this go under?== Portillo 08:57, 23 February 2007 (UTC) Is that better?

[edit] um, notable sufferers?

am i missing something? why is 'the white rabbit' listed?71.232.108.228 07:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


Someone added this to the white rabbit page: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=White_Rabbit&diff=prev&oldid=109766817 I'm not sure what their reasoning is, it should probably be removed.


[edit] "Real" Notable Sufferers?

All we have for notable sufferers right now is two fictional characters. Does anyone know of any "real life" notable sufferers that we could add? --DearPrudence 06:33, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Seeing as people with AvPD tend to avoid social interaction, are socially inhibited, et cetera, it seems unlikely that there will be many "well known" sufferers. --Mark PEA 14:16, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Ted Kaczynski, perhaps? - Cyborg Ninja 11:10, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
No. Aikaterinē 17:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Joseph Cornell, reportedly. --80.235.111.150 (talk) 19:21, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Creation of a fantasy world"

I know this now links to the page for "magical thinking", but could we elaborate a little more on it? I think that "creating a fantasy world" and "using magical thinking" are fairly different things. (Feel free to correct me if this isn't the case.) --DearPrudence 01:07, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

You are correct that they are different things and I removed the link to magical thinking. Magical thinking is associated with schizotypal personality disorder and involves the inability to distinguish cause and correlation. There is no evidence avoidant types are especially prone to magical thinking; having a fantasy world does not mean you can't tell the fantasy from reality. Even the link to fantasy world is not very helpful, since the page describes fantasy worlds in literature, not psychology -- but I left it in for now.
It should be removed altogether. In point of fact, the "creation of a fantasy world" is more properly referred to as a "fixed fantasy". --DashaKat 14:28, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Should we change it to say "Creation of a fixed fantasy", then? And should we add a quick explanation for that point? I feel like it's a bit unclear at the moment. --DearPrudence 18:14, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
IMHO, it should read "Attachment to fixed fantasy" or "Investment in fixed fantasy". I would be more than happy to write a stub defining fixed fantasy, and differentiating it from a delusional system to which we could link. Blessings. --DashaKat 15:00, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Either of those sound good, and it would be excellent to have a stub for 'fixed fantasy'. --DearPrudence 16:40, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Avoidance behavior

Should this link here? The Encyclopedia Britannica article on this is concerned mainly with behavior in nature, such as antipredator behaviors. Richard001 01:38, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

No. Avoidant behavior in nature is instinctive. In humans, it is both instinctive and premeditated. However avoidant behavior, whether reactive or responsive, is a mechanism of preservation. A personality disorder presumes an atypical interpretation of reality and is not a mechanism of preservation, but a disturbance of character. Good question, though. --DashaKat 12:44, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Is this even a real disorder then? If avoidance of the unknown is instinctive, wouldn't avoidance of social interaction be a natural attribute of somebody with a limited social world? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.188.240.123 (talk) 20:35, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removed 'style' section

This is a page on Avoidant personality disorder. It is not a page on neurotic styles. Putting a differentiation section on this page creates an editorial situation where this type of section would then be required on every personality disorders page.

We would be better off creating a page on Shadow syndromes, or Neurotic styles, as opposed to addressing this here. --DashaKat 17:05, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

And a page on made up fantasy diseases used as a crutch to explain away social ineptitude —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.188.240.123 (talk) 20:05, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Right, and depression is a made-up disease to explain away being a bit down in the dumps. Could I ask you please, if you're going to continue attacking people with this disorder, do it somewhere more appropriate, this page is intended for comments on the article, not the subject itself. --Closedmouth (talk) 04:23, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Unsigned, why are you saying that about people who might recognize all the symptoms of AvPD in themselves, and maybe feel the need to get treatment so they can get over it? Usually people say things like what you said about something like Asperger's Syndrome, which has no known cure. (I'm not saying Asperger's is made up; I'm just saying that it (AS) is something that I've heard people being accused of saying they had AS when they were just a little socially inept or shy.) If someone wanted to "explain away" social ineptitude, presumably without doing any work on themselves, wouldn't they say they had something incurable, because they might think that no one would wonder why they don't work on their social ineptitude. With something like AvPD and social anxiety disorder, if someone kept saying they couldn't do things because of it, eventually someone would call them on it and wonder why they didn't get treatment for their AvPD. Most people would probably rather have friends and do well socially. If they recognize that something like a personality disorder or an anxiety disorder is keeping them from this, shouldn't they get help for it rather than have people say they're making excuses for social ineptitude? What do you propose they do about their social ineptitude then, if it's caused by excessive fear and/or hiding from others because of their misperceived ideas about themselves or others? --Norah (talk) 10:35, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] comorbidities

what about eating disorders?

I think a list of comorbidities would be easier to quickly read than prose form. anyone else? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.43.212.236 (talk) 08:38, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Clarification

This sentence, in the first section, needs clarification: "Whether the feeling of rejection is due to the extreme interpersonal monitoring attributed to people with the disorder is still disputed." Does this mean that they pay too much attention to people around them, or that they are paid too much attention to? -Me, 5/7/08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.118.73.116 (talk) 09:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

The former. --Closedmouth (talk) 12:45, 7 May 2008 (UTC)