Talk:Autumn Leaves (song)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Songs, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to songs on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. |
| Stub | This article has been rated as Stub-Class on the assessment scale. |
 |
An {{Infobox Single}}, {{Infobox Song}} or {{Infobox Standard}} has been requested for this article. Please select the appropriate infobox and format it according to the guidelines. |
There are problems with this article:
1) Was it really written in 1902, as is implied by its categorization? How come? The persons mentioned were born later. If it were written in 1902, who wrote it, and what exactly did Joseph Kosma do? An arrangement?
2) Is it legal to publish the lyrics? Aren't they copyrighted?
--Antonios Christofides 07:58, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
- The may have been copywrited, but given that the song is over 50 years (indeed 100 years) old then it's copyright has expired (I believe).--Giggidy 00:33, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
-
- If Johnny Mercer's English lyric had its copyright renewed, under the copyright laws of the day its original copyright expited 56 years after it was written (which means just about now). But the new copyright law extends copyright to 75 years after the author's death... so if this applies, at least Mercer's lyrics are still under copyright. -- BRG 15:28, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Contents |
[edit] French lyric
I think this is the original lyric - it tallies with my knowledge of the song - but I don't speak French so could someone check it for me. Ta.
Oh ! je voudrais tant que tu te souviennes,
Des jours heureux où nous étions amis,
En ce temps-là, la vie était plus belle,
Et le soleil plus brûlant qu'aujourd’hui.
Les feuilles mortes se ramassent à la pelle,
Tu vois, je n'ai pas oublié.
Les feuilles mortes se ramassent à la pelle,
Les souvenirs et les regrets aussi.
Et le vent du Nord les emporte,
Dans la nuit froide de l'oubli.
Tu vois, je n'ai pas oublié
La chanson que tu me chantais...
C'est une chanson qui nous ressemble,
Toi qui m'aimais, moi qui t'aimais.
Nous vivions tous les deux ensemble,
Toi qui m'aimais, moi qui t'aimais.
Mais la vie sépare ceux qui s'aiment,
Tout doucement sans faire de bruit.
Et la mer efface sur le sable,
Les pas des amants désunis. --Giggidy 00:32, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] "Selective list" violates NPOV.
I've removed the small section, Selective list of recordings, because it violates NPOV. Specifically, no criteria are given for these selections. Wikipedia can't endorse Keith Jarrett's version, for example, as "better" or "more significant" than another musician's. If the article is going to selectively identify particular recordings, then those choices need to be explained and cited.
Also, NPOV aside, the list is worthless. It doesn't specify whether it's referring to specific recordings. One entry reads, "1946 Yves Montand." Does that mean that Montand recorded the song in 1946, or simply that he sang it somewhere? (On stage? In a movie?) If the list were permitted by NPOV policy — which it isn't — it would have to cite specific recordings. For instance: Keith Jarrett, Tokyo '96, ECM Records ©1998. Cribcage 20:44, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- I just removed a couple more. All Music Guide shows over 1200 cuts of this song; no reason to list any if we're not going to do a comprehensive survey! --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 07:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with this point of view. The article should be on the song, not on the various covers. The articles on the indivudal artists can to that if they want. An except might occur in the case of a really famous recording or a first recording, like Elvis Presley and "Heartbreak Hotel." Mattisse(talk) 12:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- P.S. This article needs references to document where source material is coming from. Mattisse(talk) 12:21, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- Why not list all 1200? Just do it in really small print. Or, barring that, list any that made the Billboard Hot 100, or garnered some other relatively high sales ranking, and point out that there are over 1200 covers. You can't list all the Yesterday covers either, but listing the Beatles' version and pointing out that there are hundreds of covers seems fair. Wahkeenah 13:36, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- Sure. The Beatles' version of Yesterday is definitive and original. Elvis' version of Heartbreak Hotel is definitive (was it the first? I think so.) Whose version of "The Autumn Leaves" is definitive? We list the originator, Yves Montand. Our List of jazz standards arbitrarily lists Yves Montand, Jo Stafford, Artie Shaw, Bing Crosby, Cannonball Adderley, Bill Evans, Roger Williams, Édith Piaf, Paul Weston, Mitch Miller, Jackie Gleason, Keith Jarrett, Vince Guaraldi Trio, Duke Ellington, Nat King Cole, Paul Desmond, Ahmad Jamal. Really, though, anyone who does jazz standards does this song eventually; that's the whole point of doing standards. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 15:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- Heartbreak Hotel was written for Elvis Presley to record. The Beatles wrote "Yesterday". According to one book I have (Furia), "Autumn Leaves" was a popular European instumental for which Johnny Mercer was hired to provide English lyrics. I don't know who first recorded the English version nor who made the English version popular. Now, as you say, it is an old jazz standard. Mattisse(talk) 15:49, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- Looks like Edith Piaf did the the first version in English. Here's an interesting quote from a forum: The melody of 'Autumn Leaves' was originally written as a ballet music for 'Le rendez-vous' for Roland Petit. The original stage design was done by Pablo Picasso. Moved by the music and the dance, the French film director Michael Carné' based his screenplay on 'Le rendez-vous': not without problems. Originally he tried to talk Marlene Dietrich into playing the lead role, which she refused. Another actor refused the role because of the fact that Marlene had refused. The composer Kosma, who had set the melody of the ballet into a chanson on the poem ' Feuilles mortes' (Dead leaves), insisted in using the sung version. The movie was a disaster, but the melody (hummed by Yves Montand) became an instant hit. History tells that the first recording was made by Cora Vaucair in 1948. Yves Montand followed the same year. In 1949, Juliette Greco made the first clip while singing the song (amidst autumn scenes of course). The first English version, which was translated by Johnny Mercer, was sung by Edith Piaf...[1] --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 15:56, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- My Billboard Top 40 book says that Roger Williams had a number 1 hit with it for 4 weeks in 1955 (starting in late August, appropriately). It also reached number 35, later that same year, done by Steve Allen along with George Cates and his orchestra. I would say those are likely both instrumentals (piano, specifically). That was before the Top 40 became almost strictly rock-and-roll. Cates is better known for his work with Lawrence Welk. I would argue that if any names are to be included, Williams should be in there due to having a major hit version. Wahkeenah 00:15, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
- Johnny Mercer didn't translate it as he did not know the French language and was not a translator. And he wasn't the kind of guy who would be willing to work over someone else's lyrics. Someone may have given him a translated version (it sounds like the quote above is saying that the melody was great but the French lyrics were awful) or (per Philip Furia book and Max Wilk book) he took the instumental (maybe knowing the general drift of the French lyrics) and wrote his own lyrics. Johnny Mercer was a master lyricist (even Alec Wilder acknowledges that). If Edith Piaf did the first English version (but didn't do one in French?) then it might have been because Mercer's lyrics were wonderfully superior. Mattisse(talk) 01:38, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
- My Billboard Top 40 book says that Roger Williams had a number 1 hit with it for 4 weeks in 1955 (starting in late August, appropriately). It also reached number 35, later that same year, done by Steve Allen along with George Cates and his orchestra. I would say those are likely both instrumentals (piano, specifically). That was before the Top 40 became almost strictly rock-and-roll. Cates is better known for his work with Lawrence Welk. I would argue that if any names are to be included, Williams should be in there due to having a major hit version. Wahkeenah 00:15, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
- Looks like Edith Piaf did the the first version in English. Here's an interesting quote from a forum: The melody of 'Autumn Leaves' was originally written as a ballet music for 'Le rendez-vous' for Roland Petit. The original stage design was done by Pablo Picasso. Moved by the music and the dance, the French film director Michael Carné' based his screenplay on 'Le rendez-vous': not without problems. Originally he tried to talk Marlene Dietrich into playing the lead role, which she refused. Another actor refused the role because of the fact that Marlene had refused. The composer Kosma, who had set the melody of the ballet into a chanson on the poem ' Feuilles mortes' (Dead leaves), insisted in using the sung version. The movie was a disaster, but the melody (hummed by Yves Montand) became an instant hit. History tells that the first recording was made by Cora Vaucair in 1948. Yves Montand followed the same year. In 1949, Juliette Greco made the first clip while singing the song (amidst autumn scenes of course). The first English version, which was translated by Johnny Mercer, was sung by Edith Piaf...[1] --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 15:56, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- Heartbreak Hotel was written for Elvis Presley to record. The Beatles wrote "Yesterday". According to one book I have (Furia), "Autumn Leaves" was a popular European instumental for which Johnny Mercer was hired to provide English lyrics. I don't know who first recorded the English version nor who made the English version popular. Now, as you say, it is an old jazz standard. Mattisse(talk) 15:49, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- Sure. The Beatles' version of Yesterday is definitive and original. Elvis' version of Heartbreak Hotel is definitive (was it the first? I think so.) Whose version of "The Autumn Leaves" is definitive? We list the originator, Yves Montand. Our List of jazz standards arbitrarily lists Yves Montand, Jo Stafford, Artie Shaw, Bing Crosby, Cannonball Adderley, Bill Evans, Roger Williams, Édith Piaf, Paul Weston, Mitch Miller, Jackie Gleason, Keith Jarrett, Vince Guaraldi Trio, Duke Ellington, Nat King Cole, Paul Desmond, Ahmad Jamal. Really, though, anyone who does jazz standards does this song eventually; that's the whole point of doing standards. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 15:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- Why not list all 1200? Just do it in really small print. Or, barring that, list any that made the Billboard Hot 100, or garnered some other relatively high sales ranking, and point out that there are over 1200 covers. You can't list all the Yesterday covers either, but listing the Beatles' version and pointing out that there are hundreds of covers seems fair. Wahkeenah 13:36, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- P.S. This article needs references to document where source material is coming from. Mattisse(talk) 12:21, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
{unindent} P.S. If you read the section in the article about chord changes, giving Mercer's accompanying lyric, there is nothing in the French translation in the link above, that remotely resumbles the beauty of the lyric with that chord. And that's what Mercer did so well -- and why he prefered to have the melody first and then write the lyrics. Mattisse(talk) 01:47, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
- I heard something on XM the other day -- that Mercer worked with something like 150 different composers. That's pretty remarkable. One of the few songs he actually composed is the marvelous I Wanna Be Around. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 02:08, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
- He couldn't read music -- he went by ear. On the melodies he did compose, he had to have someone else write the music and he could only say "yes" or "no" about the chord his helper would produce. He knew it if he heard it -- he had a good ear. Mattisse(talk) 02:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
- Oh by the way, I think Piaf did record the French version -- I'm just not entirely sure when. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 02:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
- The link given above Everything@Autumn Leaves says "the first English version was sung by Edith Piaf" -- doesn't say she recorded it. And this source could be wrong, as it confuses "translate" and "write" regarding Mercer. Mattisse(talk) 11:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
- Oh by the way, I think Piaf did record the French version -- I'm just not entirely sure when. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 02:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
- He couldn't read music -- he went by ear. On the melodies he did compose, he had to have someone else write the music and he could only say "yes" or "no" about the chord his helper would produce. He knew it if he heard it -- he had a good ear. Mattisse(talk) 02:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Plagiated from Tchaikovsky ???
Please compare the theme of autumn leaves with 1 minute of music from the ouverture "Hamlet" by Piotr Ilitch Tchaïkovski; my version of this opus is 21'42" long and the single minute of music to which I refer is placed between the times 7'30" and 8'36" counting from the beginning of the ouverture. PisikaA (talk) 22:29, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Gap advert
Does anybody know who did the version of Autumn Leaves that was featured in the TV commercial for Gap around 2000-2002ish? I'm not sure if it was shown worldwide, but it was on TV a lot here in the UK. 79.66.34.70 (talk) 03:09, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
