Talk:Autobahn

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Contents 1 Percentage of speed limits? 2 The autobahns formed the first limited-access, high-speed road network in the world -- NOT TRUE 3 Additional requirements to use the autobahn 4 Split or Merger? 5 Missing source citation 6 Traffic Regulations/Overtaking 7 Speed Limits - Germany 8 Unreferenced source 9 Sentence Removal

[edit] Percentage of speed limits?

This document contains an inconsistency. Early on, it is stated that, "Contrary to popular belief, only 40% of the autobahn has an unrestricted speed limit." Later on, it is stated that, "On average, about three fourths of the total length of the German autobahn network has no speed limit" (75%). Which is it? === Jez === 14:16, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I found a German text by the ADAC (German equivalent of the US AAA) which states that 30% of the Autobahn has a permanent speed limit and 17% has a temporary limit (e.g. during rush hour). This could be made into the statement "More than half of the German Autobahn has no speed limit, about one-third has a permanent speed limit of 130 km/h or less." Comments, anyone? --Chrysalis 16:51, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The autobahns formed the first limited-access, high-speed road network in the world -- NOT TRUE

The first such highway was the Southern State Parkway on Long Island, NY. opened in 1926. This was preceded by the Bronx River Parkway in 1925 and there were other precedents, like the Vanderbilt Speedway. See Robert Caro's book, The Power Broker, about Robert Moses.

Robert Abbott 21:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)Robert Abbott

Sorry, but it ist true. The first limited-access, high-speed road was the AVUS in Berlin/Germany wich was opened vor public in 1921. PBI, 15:19, 22 May 2007

The key word in that phrase is "network". The above examples are single roads, not a network. --Holderca1 14:01, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Additional requirements to use the autobahn

I lived in Germany for a short period of time, and I seem to recall my parent's vehicles had to undergo regular safety checks before they could be used on the Autobahn. I can't put this into the article because I don't know this for sure, but it would be wonderful if somebody had the time to research this. The regular checks could possibly be another reason for the autobahn's good safety record despite the speeds. CobraA1 05:02, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

All German vehicles have to undergo regular safety checks, not especially for Autobahn use. For private cars, the check interval is every two years, the first check is done three years after the car is originally sold. Heavy-duty passenger cars (cabs, rental cars) are checked more often. These checks are done by independent institutions (like TÜV, Dekra etc.), not by car dealers or repair shops. The only special restriction for Autobahn use I know of (I am from Germany and have a driving license since 1988) is a minimum design speed of more than 60 km/h for any vehicle, thus preventing small motor bikes, tractors etc. from using the Autobahn. --Chrysalis 16:43, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Split or Merger?

The part of this article on Germany is almost completely repeated on German Autobahns. I suggest we remove the parts on Germany here, referring to the separate German page, and when similar pages exist for Austria and Switzerland, also to those. Apart from the language, nothing specifically justifies combining the three into one article, I believe. Classical geographer 09:31, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I support a restructure, but believe that Autobahn, as "In most countries, it usually refers to the German autobahn specifically", should cover the German roads only. The majority of links come from German cities anyway. This requires merging in the fork German Autobahns back again, of course, instead of removing the parts on Germany as you suggest. Having an article named Autobahn that does not cover German roads would be rather odd, and a contradiction to the quote above. As on German Wiki, Austrian and Swiss roads can be covered by separate lists. Other roads in non-German language countries are covered by the general Motorway article. -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       17:09, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, that sounds sensible too. Do you know by any chance how Swiss and Austrians call their Motorways? My suggestion was not to leave those two in this article and move only the German stuff out, but rather to disband this complete article and split it up. Your suggestion to move things to Motorway where appropriate sounds like a very good idea, anyway. Classical geographer 19:53, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

The Swiss and the Austrians actually call their Motorways/Freeways "Autobahns" because in Austria and Switzerland you buy "Autobahn Vignettes" which are motorway toll stickers. Not only that but the first initial on Austrian Motorways is "A" for Autobahn and the German speaking Swiss say Autobahn as well. So I say this article's title can be left alone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MKLPTR (talk • contribs) 00:40, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Missing source citation

"Moreover, recent accident statistics supposedly don't lend proof that traveling at high speeds is that much more dangerous."

What source supports this claim?

It's an odd statement. Statistics have demonstrated for decades that Autobahn-like roads are safer, faster, and more fuel-efficient than other roads (that's why they're built), so it isn't just "recent...statistics". International comparison shows this holds regardless of posted speed limits. So, given reasonable traffic, weather, etc, you're safer at 75-mph on a freeway than 35-mph on urban streets because most dangers have been "engineered out": no cross traffic, no opposing traffic, no trees/poles near the roadway, no pedestrians, no sharp turns, etc. I've revised the statement. Duke Ganote 06:55, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Traffic Regulations/Overtaking

After living in Germany for 28 years, I've always understood that one is NOT allowed to use to horn or flash the headlights as a signal for intended overtaking. Firstly, any indication of an intended manover (in any country I know of) presupposes that the way is already free for such a manoeuvre. Secondly, trying to force someone out of your way by threatening them (de:Nötigung) is a crime, which is punishable in extreme cases with up to five years imprisonment. The only acceptable signal for overtaking ANYWHERE in Germany is the use of the turn signal lamp (indicator if your British). It is not permitted to use the horn or flash the headlights unless danger is present or caution is required.

If anyone knows any differently, I wouild like to hear about it. If not I suggest that the sentence be revised or removed.

85.22.11.35 18:47, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

see the note in the article referring to §5 (5) of the German traffic regulations (Link) (German text) - it allows for use of horn and/or flashlights outside cities to signal the intention of overtaking. I am pretty sure though that the common behavior on left lanes of German Autobahns is NOT what is meant by this paragraph, but only on standard streets to warn the slower vehicles to avoid sudden change of speed or be frightened by the overtaking vehicle. Unfortunately, this is clarified nowhere. --Chrysalis 19:21, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I stand corrected. It obviously does not mean the typical aggressive continuous flashing as performed by some idiots :-)

85.22.31.165 13:28, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

HIGH-BEAM ISSUE PER ABOVE The momentary flash of a vehicles high-beam, is done to *improve the alert-warning issued to traffic of ahead*, of your intention to overtake.

It arrives to the world, owing various "United Nations Conventions on Road Traffic, Road Signs & Signals". This allowance remains active for contracting states-parties, and remains in-force in that Convention. Its use is 'optional', but is ideal for high-speed roads, particularly to better alert 'the inattentive' among us. Indicators are to be used fully per normal requirement. The allowance does not allow for aggressive flashing.

DERESTRICTION SIGN Reference to the 'DERESTRICTION' sign in this article has mild error. This sign as pictured, AND ITS DERIVATES SHOWING A SOLID DIAGONAL BAND etc, is catalogued in the "United Nations Convention on Road Traffic, Road Signs & Signals" as a - "C,17a". Its meaning; "END OF ALL LOCAL PROHIBITIONS IMPOSED ON MOVING VEHICLES".

It DOES NOT mean 'National Speed-Limit', nor is it to represent a 'recommended speed-limit'. It is NOT to be used to represent a 'posted numerical speed-limit' nor a 'DEFAULT SPEED-LIMIT' - so used to apply to a length of road, when no speed-limit sign is otherwise posted, despite what certain public service employees in contracting nations Transport Divisons might say. Most have simply 'forgotten' over the decades where this sign arrives from and its contracted requirements. Its history dates back to 1922 that I can tell, its meaning uniform since that time.

IF a speed-limit is to be introduced on a length of speed-derestricted highway, then THE SIGN *MUST* FIRST BE REMOVED for that to take effect.

The sign MUST NOT be used BY ANY NATION - UNLESS; it accepts its meaning as carrying 'no absolute maximum'. States Parties CAN however restrict the top-speed of certain drivers, for application when passing this sign by use of "LICENSE CATEGORY" or "VEHICLE CATEGORY" speed-limits.

For example; a nation might apply a 100km/h top-speed for say Probationary drivers, or a 100km/h maximum for heavy vehicles over XX Tonnes GVM, and so on.

To date: GB and NZ (with WA in AUS tidying-up) are in technical default of this signs international meaning. Jeremy H. Pritchard mot.adv@internode.on.net MotAdv-NSW AUS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.44.23.103 (talk) 03:14, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Speed Limits - Germany

"On average, about three quarters of the total length of the German autobahn network has no speed limit, about one quarter has a permanent limit, and the remaining parts have a temporary limit for a number of reasons."

So this means ~75% has no limit, ~25% has a permanent limit and ~0% has a temporary limit? I think this could be worded a bit more clearly. Especially as I don't understand it. --711groove 04:26, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

There is a discussion at the top of this page, which quotes different percentages. Probably somebody was so confused that the percentages got totally mixed up. Maybe someboday can actually find a source for these figures? Classical geographer 13:27, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unreferenced source

I've added [citation needed] after "A 2005 study by the German Interior Ministry".

I've been looking for that study for hours, but the only reference I can find is that very sentence on this page. Does that study exist? If we know of it, it must have been published somewhere. If it is not available on the Internet, there must be a reference to the book/bulletin/whatever where it first appeared publicly. Such a strong claim cannot be kept without a clear and verifiable reference. (MasterMan 21:29, 7 November 2007 (UTC))

You're quite right, it's impossible to find. That might be because it's the Ministry of Traffic rather than the Ministry of the Interior; or because it's not the Bundesministerium but rather a Ministry of one of the individual Länder. The only reference I've found is a newspaper article that reports the ADAC as claiming a speed limit does not lower the accident rate (http://www.welt.de/politik/article1307204/Die_CDU_setzt_der_SPD_ein_Tempolimit.html) but then that doesn't quote any source either... Maybe the claim should be removed for the moment. Classical geographer 10:08, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sentence Removal

I've removed the following sentence from the article: "In Switzerland trucks are forces to you the train more and more, this is to free up space on the autobahn and reduce the pollution."

The sentence is poorly formed in English, enough so that it doesn't make sense. Also, it sounds like opinion and is not cited. If the wording can be cleaned up and the opinion cited, feel free to revert.

Jamesfett (talk) 11:08, 13 March 2008 (UTC)