User talk:Asteriks

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[edit] Welcome, from User:Eric Jack Nash

Welcome!

Hello, Asteriks, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Be bold! Again, welcome! --luckymustard 12:35, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 13 September 2006

Please do not add commercial links or links to your own private websites to Wikipedia, as you did in William Bennett. Wikipedia is not a vehicle for advertising or a mere collection of external links. You are, however, encouraged to add content instead of links as long as the content abides by our policies and guidelines. If you feel the link should be added to the article, then please discuss it on the article's talk page rather than re-adding it. See the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. Thanks.

[edit] Your comments on Talk:Nancy Pelosi

Thank you for your recent comment on Nancy Pelosi. However, article talk pages are reserved for discussion which contributes to the improvement of the article. They are not to be used for general discussion of the subject. If you would like to experiment, please try the the sandbox. Thank you. Xiner (talk, email) 14:43, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

  • I think the above crit is harsh. It is better to put general discussion on a new subpage, but hell, I don't know how to create one. Thanks for the Bernard Goldberg quote and cites. Someone may object to its length, but that can be discussed, too. --Lexein 11:01, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Signatures

Hi Asteriks!

As a courtesy to other editors, it is a Wikipedia guideline to sign your posts on talk pages, user talk pages, and WikiProject pages. To do so, simply add four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your comments. Your user name or IP address (if you are not logged in) and the date will be then be automatically added along with a timestamp when you save your comment. Signing your comments helps people to find out who said something and provides them with a link to your user/talk page (for further discussion). For further info, read Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. Thank you. --Le petit prince 13:49, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Allen Sears

Are you Allen Sears? You seem to be in really tight with the guy. Thanks. Turtlescrubber 21:37, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm not Allen Sears. I'm just a guy who doesn't like injustice and double standards… Asteriks 09:15, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:SOAP

Your recent addition to the Christian Institute Talk Page has been removed as it is contrary to WP:SOAP Please do not use WP talk pages for opinion pieces. (This issue has been brought to your attention before on 10 January 2007 - see above)

Your edit to the main article is a clear breach of NPOV and has been removed. If you are at all uncertain on NPOV or any other aspect of WP usage, please feel free to ask. Regards Vacant Stare 15:37, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree absolutely that my contribution to the Christian Institute's talk page in any way could be construed a soapbox. It was a real case that went to a real court house, made the real newspapers, and led to a real judicial decision being handed down. I submit that the real reason that my contribution was censored that the ugly persecution that an old couple underwent gives a different view of the hate crimes law than that advocated by its minders (a good, necessary, progressive law that in no way can do any harm and can only be thought as thus by old reactionary farts). Asteriks 14:55, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

You have been advised as to the reasoning for the deletion of your original contribution and provided with a link to the related regulation. Your subsequent addition to the talk page is also contrary to WP:SOAP and WP:AGF as well as extremely discourteous to an editor who is merely enforcing the regs. Someone with a less charitable outlook would be seeking to block you on that basis alone.
The veracity of the claims made by the CI and yourself is neither here nor there (tho personally, I agree with your view). Your edit was demonstrably contrary to WP:SOAP and was edited appropriately. Deletes are always annoying to the author, but, particularly when they are accompanied by links to the appropriate sections of the regs, we are required to accept them and act in a collegiate manner. For the avoidance of doubt, I will of course ask a random 3rd-party editor to check my actioning. (Update - Done: see my talk page. Appropriateness of actioning approved by 3rd party editor.)
I do hope you will consider both the content of your future edits and, particularly, the tone in which you choose to address your fellow editors.
Please note, replies to personal message should be placed on the talk page of the editor with whom you are speaking. Regards Vacant Stare 16:21, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
One note, I have no opinion on the content of the CI article, so I don't endorse either side in any content dispute. It is important to remember what we're doing here is writing an encyclopedia. Talk pages are a tool for discussing the article. It is not a general purpose space for discussing the subject or adding facts or text which don't fit the article. It is however fine to discuss possible additions to the article there and if you disagree on whether or not something should be in the article, the talk place is definitely the place to do it. henrik•talk 18:57, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry if anyone feels insulted. Having said that, I am all in favor for avoiding soapboxes, but as for my "edit [being] demonstrably contrary to WP:SOAP and [being] edited appropriately", may I point out that all rules (and facts) are perhaps not always that straight-forward, that all "breaches" of NPOV are not always that "clear", that and it is possible for a human to be mistaken when branding comments as "inappropriate' "or "unacceptable"? (Yes, naturally, that would include my own self.)

What is (or what seems, on the face of it) straightforward is a case of a hate crimes law leading to a legal nightmare for a retired couple in Lancashire. Granted, the film is by the Christian Institute, but does that make the case any less compelling and should the case be ignored because the document used is a CI document? Speaking of "demonstrably", what about the film is only "a soapbox, a battleground, or a vehicle for propaganda and advertising"? Isn't the film rather filled with facts? (I'd like to take the opportunity to say that I am not a member of CI, nor do I share their views, but I am against dangers to the First Amendment, i.e., free speech.) Should all references to, links to, and excerpts of Wall Street Journal articles and op-eds be deleted because they "advertise", directly or otherwise, for the Republican Party?

My turn to link you to a rule:

"The policy says nothing about objectivity, or whether there is such a thing: a "view from nowhere" to use Thomas Nagel's phrase. Rather, the policy is simply that we should describe disputes, not engage in them" (emphasis mine). And

"Many editors believe that bias is not in itself reason to remove text, because in some articles all additions are likely to express bias. Instead, material that balances the bias should be added, and sources should be found per WP:V."

What exactly was it about the video describing the CI couple's months of travails that is using the soapbox? If soapbox there is, it comes from an identifiable crisis an English couple went through. Saying it uses a soapbox, without demonstration, is not enough, in my honest opinion. If it was a the fact that it is a CI video, then half of all discussions on Wikipedia should be removed. And why is this tantamount to having material — on the talk page, for Christ's sake, and twice now! — deleted forever?!

I have, to my best recollection, never deleted anything on a talk page, and very rarely so in an article, and it so happens that I definitely think that the onus should be on the deleter for explaining, with arguments and facts, his deletions — rather than simply saying I am following rule X or rule Z along with a link to said rule — and not on the person whose material was deleted.

As for your comments on a warning for January 10, I wonder how correct it is to simply take one user's opinion as the gospel (just like opinions, or personal readings, if you prefer, of the rules), notably when a couple of months later, someone else disagreed, stating the crit was "harsh", and that the first user went too far.

I am in the habit of seeing a number of conservative edits get regularly slammed, dissed, deleted, or (considerably) shortened — with or without explanation in the talk pages — along with explanations (later, when confronted) that those responsible were doing nothing but enforcing rule A or rule B. By some strange coincidence, these edits are usually in one direction only (i.e., no deleting of comparable material in what might be called the "liberal" sections of an article). Now, it seems, even the talk pages (seen by what — maybe 1 in 50 visitors to a Wikipedia article?) are taboo!! These I feel are "extremely discourteous" to conservatives and, at the risk of sounding hyperbolic, to the pursuit of truth in general.

I hope nobody takes any of this personally. Asteriks 19:00, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Hello. I'm glad you're engaging in a dialog. I don't think you need to post the same text on both Vacant Stare's talk page and your own. Either is fine, but both is a bit redundant :-) The reason is mostly that the talk page isn't the place to put that material. Could you try to rewrite the part about the hate crimes campaign so it is more neutral? There is a difference between "Hate crime legislation is bad, here's poor people getting hurt by it in a video produced by CI" and "The institute has campaigned against hate crime legislation, arguing it has detrimental effects, by producing videos and posting them online". henrik•talk 19:18, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Henrik's comments above. Present the CI's case (also, give details of which hate crimes law it is that is causing the fuss - it's far from clear to me) and balance it with the opposing views (there's bound to be some). If the edit is in proportion to the notability of the issue (a one-day wonder, third item down on the BBC as I recall) then have got yourself a point well made. :-) IMHO, take Henrik's suggested sentence, bung in the name of the related Acts of Parliament that allegedly caused the issue, and voila!
I maintain that your text linking to the video in the main article was POV: an elderly CI couple having to fight the government for their right to free expression is about as POV as it gets! :-)
I'm not interested in the rights or wrongs of these two old dears' actions, nor in discussing the merits of liberal vs conservative opinions. This is an encyclopedia: neither viewpoint is appropriate on WP. This is not a forum for political axe-grinding and I tend to edit it out regardless of which side seems to be bending the facts.
I will not take it personally if you will kindly 1) not accuse me of knee-jerk editing (like any sensible editor, I took the time to check the 10 Jan 2007 edit before agreeing with with complainant) and 2) not lump me in with those who may unreasonably edit others work based on some random political bias.
Regards Vacant Stare 19:38, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I am glad that henrik's glad that we're engaging in a dialog (even if our point of contention (sic) continues as late as two months later?). Of course, from my point of view (which I am sure you will shake your head at, wondering how anybody can be so obtuse (especially since I haven't had time to address this fact in the past two months or so)), there was no amount of dialogue when my contribution got unceremoniously discarded — along with the description of the changes I had made in the discussion page!! — but that's another story.

As I re-read the dialog in question (nine to ten weeks later), I am trying very hard to understand here and not lose my patience. Vacant Stare wants to be a watchdog. Fine. In our world, in the world of reality, there are no blacks and whites, only different shades of gray. In a comment, there may be 80% soap and 20% fact, or 80% fact and 20% soap, but there was no question that my contribution was so completely soap-ish (if not 100%, probably close to 97% or so) that it had to vanish completely — as was my second contribution and… as was my second discussion page note!

As it happens, what you did was not only not make a note of the removed material, you removed my talk page note presenting the material I had added. As it stands now, one commenter's contribution to the talk page (mine) is nowhere to be found. What's more, you are… (pause for dramatic effect)… OFFENDED, God forbid, that I don't take your judgment and your decision well. I should do nothing more and sit with an open mouth and react with nothing more than (guilty?) understanding (I should be "collegiate"!) that you had nothing in your mind, body, and soul but good and honorable intentions… (As it happens, the meat of your defense of your entirely-honorable intentions happens to slam my intentions again and again — although it seems to be done in a somewhat gentle way, it is definitely done in a paternal (dare I say in an overbearing?) manner.)

I suppose only good intentions also explain your frequent usage of the passive term ("Your edit to the main article is a clear breach of NPOV", "This issue has been brought to your attention") in sentences like the officialese-sounding, threat-filled "You have been advised". God forbid such a statement be changed to "I decided to advise you" or that the equally officialese-sounding follow-up ("Your edit was demonstrably contrary to WP:SOAP and was edited appropriately") be changed to (dare I say it?) "My point of view — neutral or otherwise — is that such-and-such was not correct and therefore I decided to"… Indeed, with your debate-closed, incontrovertible-conclusion-reached tone of voice you seem to think that I am supposed to feel nothing but gratitude ("Someone with a less charitable outlook would be seeking to block you on that basis alone") and stop arguing, discussing, or engaging in …dialog!

Speaking of charitable outlooks or the lack thereof, I feel you have no excuse for making the godlike decisions you have made. I, for one, consider it a duty not to remove or to change anything in any Wikipedia article without duly making a note of it and, indeed, without making a quote of said removed text for the sake of documentation. I consider the charge of being unsourced a serious charge that must be thoroughly discussed and thoroughly proven before action is taken, not something that lone person acting as prosecutor, defense attorney, main witness, judge, and jury all in one can take upon him- or herself without said discussion/dialog (no, one or two other editors is not a number that I consider enough to overcome that [and that's not just for myself, that's for every contributor]), and that, without presenting the slightest shred of evidence and, indeed, without the slightest talk page note thereof (notwithstanding a note in (very) general terms to the fact that it "goes against Rule A or Rule B" or "against the rules"). Asteriks 17:45, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion

There's some random chatter on your User Page. Might be nicer if you deleted it (I guess someone was confused) and entered some personal details. Always good to know a little about who you're chatting with. Regards Vacant Stare 19:53, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Christian Institute

I confess that I cannot bring myself to wade through today's incoherent posting to my talk page.

If you have a problem with my actioning on this or any other article, you should follow the procedure outlined very clearly in the Help section. I am, as always, perfectly happy for independent third parties to judge my actioning.

All further postings from you will be deleted, unread. Vacant Stare 18:35, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

PS Please note that I am very rarely online these days and no longer edit articles. I share what seems to to be the now general view that WP is grossly unreliable as an information source and I no longer support it.

[edit] Micheal Moore hates america

I have added a comment on the discusion page of the above article please read it if you have a moment?

Yours Grimm MD —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.44.37.254 (talk) 23:49, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Expelled", ID and conservatism

I mentioned this on the talk page of "Expelled" but just in case you miss it, I will repeat myself here. Please do not marginalize conservatives that don't agree with the ID movement by insinuating ID is a conservative issue. --Aunt Entropy (talk) 23:23, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Furthermore, Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Please do not use a talk page for discussing improvements to an article as an opportunity for off-topic soapboxing. Quoting Nina May's soapboxing is not on-topic either. If you have a suggestion to improve the article please try to make it without editorializing about one side of the debate or the other, since that only detracts from your point and needlessly aggravates other editors. Thank you. -- HiEv 11:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Please consider taking the AGF Challenge

I would like to invite you to consider taking part in the AGF Challenge which has been proposed for use in the RfA process [1] by User: Kim Bruning. You can answer in multiple choice format, or using essay answers, or anonymously. You can of course skip any parts of the Challenge you find objectionable or inadvisable.--Filll (talk) 14:28, 23 April 2008 (UTC)