Talk:Astrid Kirchherr

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Good article Astrid Kirchherr has been listed as one of the Arts good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.


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Contents

[edit] Link at beginning of article?

The [1] at the beginning of the article leads to a picture. Anyone have an idea how we can use it as an image?

Also, I'm not sure about the picture of Astrid that my friend(Jinxa) put up. I'm not sure about the copyright on that. Any ideas? --OreosTalkContribs 00:15, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Answer

To answer your first question, that link appears to lead to an outdated page. To answer your second question, that pic, since it is off of a website, appears copyrighted and can't be used on Wikipedia. I can't read German, but it appears neither pictures can be used on here. Sorry. Just following policy. --Pilot|guy 00:18, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

That would be what I was thinking. I believe I fixed the image link, however.. OreosTalkContribs 00:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay, thanks, but my answer still remains the same. --Pilot|guy 00:21, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Yup. I looked her up on Creative Commons and still found nothing. Flikr images are copyrighted as well, correct? OreosTalkContribs 00:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

  • Jurgen Volmer was responsible for the mop top haircut - NOT Kirchherr. Vera, Chuck & Dave 23:18, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Photo

I put a new photo of Astrid in - and an info box. The quotes need to be sorted out, and one or two need citations.andreasegde 12:15, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA

I think this article could be a GA if some work was done on it. It will be a short article, but a GA review does not take that into account. I will start working on it soon. She deserves more...andreasegde 13:55, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

It is now up for GA. andreasegde 15:12, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Failed "good article" nomination

This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of May 18, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: This is the biggest problem of the criteria. There are parts of this article that are pretty confusing. To someone wholly unfamiliar with who these people are, when I read this sentence "In 1960, Kirchherr and Vollmer had an argument with Voormann," I had no clue what was going on. There should be some identification in the article as to who these people are, and under what circumstances they would be having an argument. Also, this passage "so he wandered down the Reeperbahn," what is "Reeperbahn?"
  • Comment:Reeperbahn is linked to its page. egde 11:23, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Also this passage: "He walked in and watched a performance." Who is the sentence talking about?

  • Comment: The sentence says, "Voormann walked in and watched a performance by a group called The Silver Beetles" Voormann and Vollmer are mentioned in the Lead. egde 11:23, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Again, in this passage "suggesting that he talk to Sutcliffe" who is "Sutcliffe?" You haven't told us yet. We have paragraphs to go for we find out who he is.

  • Comment: Did you read the Lead? He is mentioned in the Lead, and thereafter is mentioned as Sutcliffe, which is according to Wikipedia style rules. egde 11:23, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Also this sentence: "Vollmer cut Lennon and McCartney's in Paris in 1961" Huh?

  • Comment: That has now gone. egde 11:23, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

This following part is a run-on sentence:

Several years later Kirchherr married English drummer Gibson Kemp, eight years her junior, who had replaced Ringo Starr in Rory Storm and the Hurricanes in 1962, and who went on to perform in a band with Voorman under the name Paddy, Klaus & Gibson.

  • Comment: That has been shortened. egde 11:23, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

This paragraph is redundant and could probably be reduced to one sentence:

The St.Pauli district was well-known as being an area where prostitutes were to be found, and was dangerous for anyone that looked different than the usual clientele. As a trio, Kirchherr, Voormann and Vollmer stood out in the Kaiserkeller—dressed in their suede coats, wool sweaters, jeans and round-toed shoes—when most of the customers had greased-back Teddy boy hairstyles and wore black leather jackets and pointed boots. Bars like the Kaiserkeller were dangerous for anybody that looked different from the usual clientele when customers became drunk and aggressive

  • Comment: It has been taken out. egde 11:23, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
2. Factually accurate?: Pretty good with the references, although you can always use more.
3. Broad in coverage?: Honestly, this is not a biography. It's a discussion of this woman and her affiliation with the Beatles and Sutcliffe (does his first name ever appear in the article?) While no doubt these are importantly parts of her life, according to this article her life practically ended in 1963.
  • Comment: I also find it unusual, but she kept a very low profile. egde 11:23, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, there are long stretches of info that don't even have anything to do with Astrid, for example:

George Harrison was later sent back to England for being under-age, and McCartney and Best for attempted arson at the Bambi Kino, which left Lennon and Sutcliffe in Hamburg. Lennon took a train home, but as Sutcliffe had a head cold he stayed in Hamburg.

  • Comment: That has also been taken out. egde 11:23, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, this passage is really not biographical

In August of 1963, Lennon took Powell (then Cynthia Lennon) to Paris for a belated honeymoon, where they met Kirchherr, who happened to be there at the same time with a girlfriend for a few days.[18] The four of them went from wine bar to wine bar, and finally ended up back at Kirchherr's lodgings, where all four fell asleep on Kirchherr's single bed "like sardines".

  • Comment: That has been trimmed. egde 11:23, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

This article has to be trimmed of much of the Beatles and Sutcliffe info that isn't directly related to her.

  • Comment: Thas has been done. egde 18:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
4. Neutral point of view?: Pretty good. Dispassionate for the most part. This sentence has some problems though:

the "Meisterschule für Mode", which was the Hamburg equivalent of the Liverpool art college

According to whose opinion? You need to reference that claim or clarify it as the opinion of someone in particular.

  • Comment: The quote is from Bob Spitz's book, and was taken from one of Sutcliffe's letters.
5. Article stability? Congrats, no edit wars, only hard work from diligent editors.
6. Images?: The fotos all look great, with fair use rationales and sources.

When these issues are addressed, the article can be resubmitted for consideration. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a GA review. Thank you for your work so far. — Esprit15d (talk ¤ contribs) 20:59, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the review, and this article will be improved. I thank Esprit15d for his comments. egde 18:58, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Astrid

The article details Kirchherr's life in Hamburg which is heavily connected with The Beatles. Her later life is not well-documented, as she kept a low profile for many years, only recently (circa 2001) taking part in Beatles' conventions and showing her photographs internationally. The words written about Kirchherr and The Beatles is roughly 4,110. The rest of the article is about 6,200. I have re-nominated Astrid for a GAR. egde 11:36, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA review 29 May

I've read the article and the review above. The article is a bit confusing with the names, and it would help if Sutcliffe were identified one or twice outside the lead, but it passes (1) in my opinion, and the references seem adequate for (2), although it would need improvement to meet FA standards. The article is still heavy on aspects of her life related to the Beatles, but that appears to be the most notable parts, so while this certainly falls short of the comprehensive requirement of FA, I think it just meets the broad requirement of GA (3a). Seems neutral and stable (4,5). At this time, I have a concern about the images. Four are fair use, and there are fair use rationales, but the images are not directly discussed in the text. As such, the image of Sutcliffe and Kirchherr, and the 2003 image, seem ornamental. Fair use *only* for indentification is tenuous after the infobox image. I'm not going to fail this GA nom because the solutions are simple: either remove the images or rewrite the text to directly discuss the images. It may be overly detailed in some points, such as buying a Volkswagen, the Preludin, and what she wore (3b). Otherwise I think it meets GA criteria. Gimmetrow 00:37, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment: I have taken two photos out, the Preludin, and the Volkswagen car. I don't understand the Sutcliffe comment though, as he is mentioned 18 times outside the Lead. Thanks a lot for your comments. :) egde 12:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Updated. What I meant about Sutcliffe is that, because he is mentioned so often, it might be helpful if once or twice outside the lead his relationship with the Beatles was identified. Gimmetrow 15:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Ahhhh, I get you now! OK, will do. Thanks a lot. egde 16:18, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
About the mention of Preludin, it seemed overly detailed to mention the mother and local chemist. The fact itself that she supplied this is interesting. In an article with one or two such anecdotes, the details stand out and provide colour, but here a lot of the article is composed of such anecdotes, and it can come across as overly detailed. If there were any way to add more info about other parts of her life, it would help, but very good job with the available material! Gimmetrow 17:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I will search. Thanks a lot for your comments! egde

[edit] The photo

The photo in the info box is DEFINITELY Astrid in 1964 (photo by Max Scheller). Buy Bob Spitz's book, or borrow beg or steal it and you will see. Patti Boyd was not known for being a photographer. andreasegde 16:08, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

That's what I bin tellin em! But will they have it? No, I was even accused of bein a member of the Ulster Defence Association! Just av a butchers at Pattie Boyd's front teeth for a kick off - you could get a silver dollar through that gap!! Btw, where you bin hidin la? Vera, Chuck & Dave 18:05, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I have put a new caption in from the book: "Kirchherr on the train from Munich to Hamburg with Lennon and Starr (cropped) by Max Scheler in 1964". In the larger photo you can see Kirchherr's leather trousers, although her hair does look similar to Pattie Boyd's in "A Hard Days Night", and because both photos were taken on a train. --andreasegde 09:06, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Lennon was sat in the same position on both occasions (maybe he always liked to sit by the window with his back to the engine?) The compartments do look the same, but the the dividers between the headrests are different. The film ones are very rectangular on the left (but rounded on the right seats) and in the German train photo (on the left where they were sitting) they are rounded at the top. --andreasegde 09:48, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I have found a site that says Astrid took photos for A Hard Day's Night publicity shots, and it shows a photo of her with long hair. --andreasegde 10:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Plus the fact that Pattie is only seen wearing Schoolgirl Uniform (Oh God!!!) Vera, Chuck & Dave 13:26, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
The weird thing is that I left 'her indoors' for someone who looked just like her. (Well, not exactly like her, but almost... :)--andreasegde 01:44, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Astrid

Check this out: Astrid on a TRAIN - I wonder which one, with her long hair and everything? --andreasegde 20:28, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

AND THESE... (Lovely boobs) --andreasegde 20:30, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

Any edit made without a verifiable reference will be deleted, including edits that are slipped into referenced sentences, BTW. --andreasegde (talk) 02:49, 17 December 2007 (UTC)