Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yeshivish (culture)
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was No consensus. CitiCat ♫ 21:48, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Yeshivish (culture)
This is a poorly-written stub that cites no sources (because there are none) and could be mistaken as even meaning to slander Haredim who are non-Hasidim. "Yeshivish" is perhaps a slang word, and there is already a Yeshivish article for that. If it is another way of describing non-Hasidic Haredim, then add this paragraph there. But there is absolutely no "yeshivish" "culture" just as there is no "Chasidish culture" or "Modern Orthodox culture" etc etc (but yes, there is Hasidic Judaism and Modern Orthodox Judaism.) The article (actually it's one silly paragraph) makes wild claims that the term applies to American Orthodox Jews in yeshivas, and if so, then it could have been added to the yeshiva article or to the Orthodox Judaism article. While one can speak of Orthodox Judaism and Haredi Judaism, they may perhaps be called "cultures" although Judaism is a religion not a culture. This article, the notion it tries to convey, and the way it tries to convey it, is absurd and fits nowhere because it verges on the vulgar and there is no way it could ever be quantified especially in a serious encyclopedia. It violates WP:NOR, WP:CITE, WP:NEO and borders on WP:LIBEL. IZAK 08:39, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- Delete for above reasons.IZAK 08:39, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletions. IZAK 08:39, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- Merge--יודל 11:49, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- To what? Please be specific. Thank you, IZAK 12:35, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
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- Both articles contain useful info. I do not have any preference which one should merge into which one, but please do not delete this page this discussion is based on.--יודל 12:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
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- Delete per nom. Yossiea (talk) 14:19, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- Delete - This is more definition than article and I disagree with the definition; it can not be supported by sources. If there is anything of value it should be transferred to Wiktionary, but I see nothing salvageable and or/ it does not add to what already exists. --Storm Rider (talk) 15:17, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per nominator. Useful commenter above, please read WP:USEFUL, which lists a number of arguments to be avoided. Burntsauce 21:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- Keep or merge. This Afd is exagerated and frankly unwarranted. OR and CITE are not legitimate justifications for an Afd, merely reasons to add templates which encourage article impovement and breathing space for a month. 'Borders on libel'? Uh, not. And what happened to AGF? I've heard the term being used widely (not as slang) and I think that an article or at least paragraph to explain this, I dunno, sub-group would be welcome as an additional way to expand American Jews or 'Modern Orhtodox' since that is the context I've heard it mostly being used. Again, this current stub is OR, so what? Add a prod before killing it, encourage improvement not stifle it when it does not fit your mindset. Anyway, the somewhat similar Hardal started out the same way. --Shuki 23:03, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
- Weak Keep The article describes (or should describe) a notable sub-culture of Orthodox Jews. I think there is what to say on it. --Eliyak T·C 08:51, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
- Delete unreferenced opinion. `'Míkka 22:27, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
- Keep and Rename. 'Yeshivish' describes a notable group of Haredi Jews of Eastern European origin with distinctive religious practices and way of life, and I don't think sources will be difficult. (See, as a quick example, [1].) I agree the present article is unsourced and poorly written but notability of the topic, not quality of the present article, is the issue at AFD. I would support renaming the article to e.g. Yeshivish Jews or Yeshivish Judaism. I agree "culture" is not used for any other branch of Judaism and I don't believe there's any evidence this is the way different branches of Orthodox Judaism are normally characterized. Also, I believe Yeshivish editors, who should not be discouraged from working on the article, would likely object to having their religion described this way (the nominator and some of the delete votes appear to have this concern), and I believe their views deserve some respect since part of the purpose of the article is to convey something about their worldview as well as notable outside perspectives on it. Best, --Shirahadasha 04:25, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
- Comment Here are a few additional sources: [2],[3], [4], [5] --Shirahadasha 04:38, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
- Delete and incorporate useful material into Yeshivish. I agree with much of both IZAK's and Shirahadasha's opposite perspectives. There is more than just linguistics to "Yeshivish", but the right place to expand this is in the other existing article. --MPerel 05:47, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
- Comment This article and the "Yeshivish" article are about two different topics and I believe this will make a merger difficult. "Yeshivish" as used in this article is a synonym the for "Litvish" or "Lithuanian Yeshiva" style of Judaism, while the Yeshivish article refers to a Hebrew-English Creole or dialect. The two are not the same. A "Yeshivish Jew" doesn't have to speak any English at all, and many who live in Israel don't. Many who speak English do so in a Yeshivish style, but by no means all. Best, --Shirahadasha 00:53, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- Comment I see your point. Perhaps one solution might be to recreate an article called Litvish Judaism, in contrast to Hasidic Judaism, that covers the more cultural aspects you're talking about. --MPerel 02:44, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- Comment This article and the "Yeshivish" article are about two different topics and I believe this will make a merger difficult. "Yeshivish" as used in this article is a synonym the for "Litvish" or "Lithuanian Yeshiva" style of Judaism, while the Yeshivish article refers to a Hebrew-English Creole or dialect. The two are not the same. A "Yeshivish Jew" doesn't have to speak any English at all, and many who live in Israel don't. Many who speak English do so in a Yeshivish style, but by no means all. Best, --Shirahadasha 00:53, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- Comment This article was created by "copy-and-pasting from original yeshivish" - (see first edit summary) - merge back? Chesdovi 11:32, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
