Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tommy Davis (defensive end)
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Keep. Tyrenius (talk) 21:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Tommy Davis (defensive end)
Seems a non notable football player. As the page points out: No regular season appearances, no notable achievements. Just being a practice squad player doesn't seem to satisfy notability guidelines per WP:BIO Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 14:18, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Keep Player is under contract by an NFL team. All practice squad players in the past have been deemed notable. Additionally, player is a former notable college football player, and most college football player articles have been deemed notable. Pats1 T/C 14:21, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
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- I have seen a few pass through newpages, but I have not seen any AfD's, or other discussions that indicated a community consensus on the inherent notability of NFL practice squad players. If you know any, could you point me there? Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 14:24, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- That's the point. Notability of practice squad players is almost never questioned. Pats1 T/C 14:26, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Comment There is no consensus or precedent that says that practice squad players are inherently notable. Also, most college players are not notable until they turn professional. The exception is players who win postseason awards like the Maxwell Award or the Heisman Trophy. This player was certainly not notable during his time at UNC; he was signed as an undrafted free agent. --Cyrus Andiron 14:36, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, and Davis has turned professional. I'd agree with you if Davis graduated and never began an NFL career. Pats1 T/C 14:49, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Other inherently notable subjects are that because it is assumed trivial to come up with reliable independent sources on them. Here, I am having more trouble. Falling back to WP:BIO, this particlar person doesn't seem to satisfy criteria for inclusion. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 14:47, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- That's the point. Notability of practice squad players is almost never questioned. Pats1 T/C 14:26, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Comment (consolidated due to edit conflicts) - Many, many practice squad player articles have been created and I can't think of any off the top of my head that have been deleted. Therefore there's little or no discussion on the topic. Nowadays, reliable sources for information on practice squad players are easily accessed. In this article's case, the following pages exist: NFL.com Player Profile (or CBS Sports Player Profile which used to be a mirror of the NFL.com profile), Washington Redskins Player Biography, and University of North Carolina Player Biography. This meets the requirements set forth by WP:NOTABLE. Pats1 T/C 14:49, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- (ec)The question then, is are they all indepentent sources. The Uni and Redskins sites don't seem to be, the nfl site more so, but the page there doesn't seem to be more then a listing. (which goes for the uni and redskins sites too more or less). I have not gone in to the argumnet that there are plenty of other practice squad players with articles on wikipedia yet. This secition WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS goes in to the argument though. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 14:55, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Independent sources such as what? Maybe half of all major American professional sports players lack "independent" sources. For example, a Google search of Rashad Baker, a former Buffalo Bills and New England Patriots player who was just claimed by the Oakland Raiders, brings up about 8-10 "listings." If it's an independent newspaper article specifically about that player or something of the ilk, you're only going to find one for perhaps 20-30% of all National Basketball Association, National Football League, Major League Baseball, and National Hockey League players in general. Pats1 T/C 15:04, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- This is again an argument that boils down to WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. If those playeres fail to meet WP:BIO aswell, then their inclusion should also be discussed. This is not the place to do that though, this is a place to discuss the possible deletion of the article on Tommy Davis. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 15:11, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Per WP:BIO, "Competitors and coaches who have competed in a fully professional league" are considered generally notable. This then points back to whether or not the article can be referenced with reliable sources. Which brings me back to my last point, which is most professional athletes have "listing" profiles which sufficiently provide the essential information needed in an article and its infobox - name, birth date (although sometimes not needed), organization, position, etc. The "independent" sources you seek outside of "listing sources" - which to me seem you're looking for a newspaper article that details the player's history, family, etc. First of all, that information is non-essential to an article and to determining its notability. Secondly, the player biography links I provided above (specifically the UNC) provide reliable information regarding the player's history already, independent or not. And finally, such articles or other independent sources exist for a small percentage of all professional sports players, but that does not mean every player who does not have is not notable enough for a Wikipedia article, per the guidelines set forth in WP:BIO in regards to professional athletes. Pats1 T/C 15:58, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Rashad Baker is definitely notable. The difference between the two is that Baker has played in 52 games during his career. While Davis has yet to see any action in the NFL. --Cyrus Andiron 15:51, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- See my comments below. Pats1 T/C 15:59, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- In this case, we are not talking about anyone who has competed in a fully professional league, becasue he hasn't competed yet. I am quite interested myself to see hwo this plays out, and what the communities thoughts are. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 16:02, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- See my comments below. Pats1 T/C 15:59, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Rashad Baker is definitely notable. The difference between the two is that Baker has played in 52 games during his career. While Davis has yet to see any action in the NFL. --Cyrus Andiron 15:51, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Per WP:BIO, "Competitors and coaches who have competed in a fully professional league" are considered generally notable. This then points back to whether or not the article can be referenced with reliable sources. Which brings me back to my last point, which is most professional athletes have "listing" profiles which sufficiently provide the essential information needed in an article and its infobox - name, birth date (although sometimes not needed), organization, position, etc. The "independent" sources you seek outside of "listing sources" - which to me seem you're looking for a newspaper article that details the player's history, family, etc. First of all, that information is non-essential to an article and to determining its notability. Secondly, the player biography links I provided above (specifically the UNC) provide reliable information regarding the player's history already, independent or not. And finally, such articles or other independent sources exist for a small percentage of all professional sports players, but that does not mean every player who does not have is not notable enough for a Wikipedia article, per the guidelines set forth in WP:BIO in regards to professional athletes. Pats1 T/C 15:58, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- This is again an argument that boils down to WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. If those playeres fail to meet WP:BIO aswell, then their inclusion should also be discussed. This is not the place to do that though, this is a place to discuss the possible deletion of the article on Tommy Davis. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 15:11, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Independent sources such as what? Maybe half of all major American professional sports players lack "independent" sources. For example, a Google search of Rashad Baker, a former Buffalo Bills and New England Patriots player who was just claimed by the Oakland Raiders, brings up about 8-10 "listings." If it's an independent newspaper article specifically about that player or something of the ilk, you're only going to find one for perhaps 20-30% of all National Basketball Association, National Football League, Major League Baseball, and National Hockey League players in general. Pats1 T/C 15:04, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- (ec)The question then, is are they all indepentent sources. The Uni and Redskins sites don't seem to be, the nfl site more so, but the page there doesn't seem to be more then a listing. (which goes for the uni and redskins sites too more or less). I have not gone in to the argumnet that there are plenty of other practice squad players with articles on wikipedia yet. This secition WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS goes in to the argument though. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 14:55, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- I have seen a few pass through newpages, but I have not seen any AfD's, or other discussions that indicated a community consensus on the inherent notability of NFL practice squad players. If you know any, could you point me there? Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 14:24, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Weak Delete Technically, he is a part of the Redskins organization. He has yet to play in a game because he was picked up yesterday. I really could go either way on this one. The player cards do cofirm that he is a member of the team. However, I think precedent dictates that once someone plays in the NFL, he is notable, just like anyone that plays in the MLB, NHL, or Premier League is also notable. As of right now, he has not played in a game. --Cyrus Andiron 15:45, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- The fact that he hasn't played in a game shouldn't be a deciding factor. The sources exist, he is under contract as a member of the Redskins. There shouldn't be any distinction between a player on injured reserve (that probably hasn't appeared in a game), a practice squad player, a player on another reserve list, or a player on the active roster who has been inactive (i.e. not dressed) for all his games when determining notability. Pats1 T/C 15:58, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, yes it should. Just being signed by a team does not make one notable. He is an employee of an oganization. He does not inherit notability simply because he is a member of the Redskins. Until he participates in a game, his NFL stats are the same as mine. Thus no record of participation. --Cyrus Andiron 16:03, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- That's your arbitrary cut-off, supported by nothing in WP:NOTABLE or WP:BIO. Davis is a professional athlete, a member of the Washington Redskins. Multiple reliable sources exist in order to provide a referenced article on the subject. The same is the case, for example, for every player on the Redskins' practice squad, the Redskins' reserve lists (injured, physically unable to perform, left squad, non-football injury, did not report, etc.), and the Redskins' active 53-man roster, and the Redskins' gameday active 45-man roster. Pats1 T/C 16:11, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- There is definitely a grey area. I'm very interested to see what the community thinks about this. The only reliable sources are player cards from different sites that basically mirror each other. Is that enough to satisfy WP:BIO? I don't think that playing in a game is completely arbitrary. It seems to me like a very straightforward criterion for inclusion. I know certain soccer players in the UK are only considered notable once they play in a specific tier in the professional leagues. Granted, that's not the same as American football. But I think the same concept applies. If you actually play at the highest level, you are notable. --Cyrus Andiron 16:27, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- That's your arbitrary cut-off, supported by nothing in WP:NOTABLE or WP:BIO. Davis is a professional athlete, a member of the Washington Redskins. Multiple reliable sources exist in order to provide a referenced article on the subject. The same is the case, for example, for every player on the Redskins' practice squad, the Redskins' reserve lists (injured, physically unable to perform, left squad, non-football injury, did not report, etc.), and the Redskins' active 53-man roster, and the Redskins' gameday active 45-man roster. Pats1 T/C 16:11, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, yes it should. Just being signed by a team does not make one notable. He is an employee of an oganization. He does not inherit notability simply because he is a member of the Redskins. Until he participates in a game, his NFL stats are the same as mine. Thus no record of participation. --Cyrus Andiron 16:03, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Keep Based on Pats1's comments. I think all NFL players should be included, because all are candidates to be looked up by fans. It's still a very exclusive club, and I think all are notable enough. They're all one pulled hammy away from being on the active roster, they're still professional athletes.►Chris NelsonHolla! 16:58, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Your first point is great. Chris and I (among a few others) maintain the NFL team roster templates. Each template is housed on its team article, such as Washington Redskins. All players on the team are listed equally on this template, including those on practice squad and reserve lists. This makes for easy access to each player's article. So if a Redskins fan comes along looking at the Redskins roster and wants to know who this Tommy Davis player is, they have this article we are currently discussing. In the past few months, we've brought the amount of redlinked players in these templates down from hundreds to just a handful. These are professional football players on NFL team rosters - having to completely de-link (as redlinking implies notability is present, but the article hasn't been created yet) players that haven't played in a game yet despite having multiple reliable sources is when deletionism is contrary to what Wikipedia stands for. Pats1 T/C 17:14, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- This is another one of those arguments to avoid, specificly WP:ITSUSEFULL. Apart from that, I doubt that navigating to a new page is more usefull or easy than having a link to a scorecard in a list of players. Arguing that it is a lot of work to change the redlinks in case of deletion is a weak argument aswell. Let's just focus on the criteria of WP:BIO, and the interpetation of being drafted, but not playing satisfies 'competing in a fully profesional league' Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 18:43, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- We have determined this article meets the requirements set forth in WP:NOTABLE and WP:BIO. User:Cyrus Andiron has also seemed to agree with this, but his/her problem was that Davis has not appeared in a regular season game, and thus isn't notable - something outside the spectrum of WP:NOTABLE and WP:BIO, as he also mentioned. Therefore Chris and I presented counter-arguments to his that were both also outside the realm of WP:NOTABLE and WP:BIO. Pats1 T/C 19:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- We seem to differ in interpetation of Cyrus' words. I do think I said enough on the subject for now. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 19:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- We have determined this article meets the requirements set forth in WP:NOTABLE and WP:BIO. User:Cyrus Andiron has also seemed to agree with this, but his/her problem was that Davis has not appeared in a regular season game, and thus isn't notable - something outside the spectrum of WP:NOTABLE and WP:BIO, as he also mentioned. Therefore Chris and I presented counter-arguments to his that were both also outside the realm of WP:NOTABLE and WP:BIO. Pats1 T/C 19:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- This is another one of those arguments to avoid, specificly WP:ITSUSEFULL. Apart from that, I doubt that navigating to a new page is more usefull or easy than having a link to a scorecard in a list of players. Arguing that it is a lot of work to change the redlinks in case of deletion is a weak argument aswell. Let's just focus on the criteria of WP:BIO, and the interpetation of being drafted, but not playing satisfies 'competing in a fully profesional league' Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 18:43, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Strong keep per WP:BIO:
A person is generally notable if they meet any of the following standards. Athletes: Competitors and coaches who have competed in a fully professional league, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, golf or tennis. Competitors and coaches who have competed at the highest level in amateur sports (who meet the general criteria of secondary sources published about them).
- Davis has competed in four NFL games[1] - even if he never made any regular season appearances, WP:BIO makes no distinction between pre-season and regular season, only that the player competes at the professional level. Davis also competed at the highest level in amateur sports, the NCAA, and was sufficiently covered by secondary sources while there.[2] Torc2 (talk) 21:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - Given the preseason appearances and appearing on the current roster, I think he meets notability. Moreover, the discussion thus far has been correct - once a player appears on the roster, there are going to be people looking for articles about him. Wikipedia has articles about the 40 man roster of professional baseball teams even when some of those players have not yet appeared in the majors. matt91486 (talk) 22:14, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Keep WP:BIO doesn't distinguish between pre-, post- or regular season games. And he's under contract with a team in the highest football league in the world. Merry Christmas from Sasha 22:21, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: I think I still agree with User:Cyrus Andiron that WP policy implies that one becomes noted enough for Wikipedia by playing in the NFL, generating stats that are repeated and discussed in various secondary sources, and not just by signing a contract. I think that the guidelines supporting WP policy should specify at least playing in a regular-season or playoff (or Cup tournament) game, not just practice-squad play or preseason cattle-call. But that's a discussion to be pursued on the WP:BIO guideline talkpage. User:Torc2 has made the case that Tommy Davis was sufficiently covered in college to keep an article; so it doesn't matter whether we consider his preseason play good enough in itself. Barno (talk) 03:49, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
- Delete - nn as hasn't played a single first grade game so fails WP:BIO criteria for athletes. Sting_au Talk 10:38, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
- You need to read the comments here, buddy.►Chris NelsonHolla! 16:30, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
- Keep Hes a pro football player, theres no more to even say--Yankees10 (talk) 17:55, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
- Note: WikiProject National Football League has been informed of this ongoing discussion. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 17:46, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
