Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thirteen Horses

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete faithless (^speak) 22:27, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thirteen Horses

Thirteen Horses (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (delete) – (View log)

Prodded but removed by creator. Looks bogus and/or original research. Couldn't find anything about it elsewhere. Sources seem to provide no real information. -WarthogDemon 05:36, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

• Delete Patent OR and mystical nonsense. Some references, but they all seem to relate to horses in general, or at best horses in mythology. But I can't find any reference to 13 horses. // Chris ^{(complaints)•(contribs)} 05:47, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comment It is truly as sad day when a user who clearly has limited knowledge of animal mythology, given the voluminous material available in print and in Google Scholar (see added references!) merely cites “Couldn't find anything about it elsewhere”. At a minimum, based on the time the article was first posted and the time of the deletion prod, the user who is prompting the deletion spent very little time attempting to “find anything” —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tahatfield (talk • contribs) — Tahatfield (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Comment I did check your references. Nowhere there does it mention "13" and "horses" together in any context. Furthermore, the "very little time" you mention between the article's creation and my afding it is exactly 40 minutes and 1 second. -WarthogDemon 05:54, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

• Delete. Original research apparently not supported by its own sources. It does not follow that because there is symbolism associated with the number 13, and symbolism associated with horses, that therefore there must be symbolism associated with "thirteen horses". If there is, the article has not established that. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 06:39, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
• Delete. While references could probably be dug up as to the mythical/cultural significances of the number thirteen and of horses, even then this article would be nothing more than a novel synthesis, which fails No Original Research anyway. Dethme0w (talk) 07:38, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
• Delete appears to be original research, not an established concept. Sources do not seem to actually address the supposed topic. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 09:43, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
• Delete per above. If you liked the Four Horsemen of Death, here are nine more friends. Interesting that 13 horses symbolize 8 qualities. Mandsford (talk) 12:57, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
• Delete incoherent. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:29, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
• Delete it's filled with original research and it's an essay, which Wikipedia isn't the place for. Its own sources don't even back it up. Doc Strange^{Telepathic Messages}Strange Frequencies 16:27, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Removal of prod-tag was scarcely valid, in any case! —TreasuryTag talkcontribs 17:25, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
• Keep Several references appear to specifically reference "13 horses" In talking with several artists in the area I have found that they acknowledge the influence of the "thirteen horses" I believe it would be extremely premature to delete this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.237.75.253 (talk) 21:30, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

• Keep Based on the above "delete" statements, it appears that Wikipedia may be lacking topical coverage in several areas due to the limited knowledge of the above "delete" users. This is a serious problem for Wikipedia and following the advice given above will only continue the narrow coverage. See article: An Analysis of Topical Coverage of Wikipedia Journal of Computer-Mediated Communication 13 (2008) 429–440 ª 2008 International Communication Association —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.237.75.253 (talk) 03:27, 4 March 2008 (UTC) — 216.237.75.253 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Say, do you two guys know each other? Mandsford (talk) 04:57, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

• Keep It might be there are no direct references to be found in English, as "13 horses" is an ancient symbol in Northern and Central Europe, in German "13 Perde" and in French "13 chevaux" references are to be found. Pelas13 (talk) 03:47, 4 March 2008 (UTC) — Pelas13 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Please feel free to provide foreign language references if you have some good ones. Some of us can read German and/or French. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 08:21, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Links to French sources: http://www.livre-pamiers.com/nomades.htm http://www.jedecouvrelafrance.com/f-3025.haut-rhin-colmar-musee-unterlinden.html Pelas13 (talk) 14:50, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
• Strong Delete Non-notable unsourced theory at best. Edward321 (talk) 05:08, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
• Delete Appears to be original research, hard to make any sense of it all really. Also, "several artists in the area" is not a reliable source. Beeblbrox (talk) 10:19, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

• Strong Keep While the current entry is a bit chaotic it contains some extremely accurate information. Research of several off line references indicate that "thirteen horses" is a valid verifiable reference to inspiration, self awareness and social focus in many cultures. Strongly implore users to search university librarys in areas of Native American and Asian mythology and culture. The Hopi medicine path addresses the thirteen horses directly. There are also references to numbers of horses as meaning to glyphs in SW America and early european art. Specifically, users should search "horse mysticism" and "horse imagery". From area of Texas the concept of Yo-he-wah, "spirit of grass" has also been studied and the number thirteen and horses is suggested to be associated with symbols. There are several references to horse handling secrets in what is now NM which include reference to thirteen horses as a "symmetry" which involves "three insights into the four directions" with the seer being central. The center supposedly represents the thirteenth horse and alignment with the actual horse being interacted with. There appears to be scarce information online with exact phase "thirteen horses", but there are several associated references in work done by the Epona Society. What is kind of exciting is that the image of "wotan's cross" involve "thirteen" as part of four directions. Each triangle in the cross results in twelve lines with the outside and thirteenth ring (line) being present. I am still researching the horse connection, but there appears to be a strong one. It is very concerning that the delete entrys seem to relate to online information only. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.212.74.192 (talk) 15:06, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment I seem to notice that all of the "keep" votes are coming from users who are either random ISPs or have made no contributions outside of the article. I'm getting suspicious that at least a few of them are sockpuppets of the original creator of the article, for instance the fact that someone at the same ISP voted twice (even if it is a shared ISP of a school or something, one vote per random ISP or otherwise create an account, which the original creator has seem to have done, several times). Anyway, it's just my opinion, its unfounded for now, but its really suspicious. Doc Strange^{Telepathic Messages}Strange Frequencies 16:37, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

• Keep I'm new to Wikipedia, but "dreizehn Pferde" is part of European Mythology and fairy tales. References: [1] (German) [2] (German) 85.1.164.172 (talk) 05:53, 6 March 2008 (UTC) — 85.1.164.172 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Comment nothing in those links shows that thirteen horses has any mythic significance, let alone the symbolism claimed in the article. Edward321 (talk) 06:46, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment Admittedly the the first link contains the phrase "dreizehn Pferde" but is a story entitled (translated) The Thirteen Brothers. The second link does NOT contain any of the words dreizehn, 13, Pferd, Pferde, Ross or Rösser so can't see how that helps the case, even tangentially. SpinningSpark 23:47, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comment The titel in the first fairy tale is indeed "The thirteen brothers", but thirteen horses are an integral, important part of the story. The second story "The Brenta flower" is taking place in Padua, the race with thirteen horses is sybolic: "Dreizehn Pferde waren es, welche um den Preis laufen sollten. Große auf ihre Hüften gemalte Nummern bezeichneten sie; Flittern und Rauschgold raschelte glitzernd in den mit Band durchflochtenen Mähnen." Please check the link again. Here is a third link [3] (German) Thirteen horses are part of European Mythology and Fairy Tales. 83.77.244.237 (talk) 20:30, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.