Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Racism in music

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Anas ^talk? 23:05, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Racism in music

Racism in music (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Content is not encyclopedic; completely violates WP:OR. This might actually make a good and interesting page for Wikipedia, but the page as it stands has no research, comes entirely from the facts one person 'knows' to be true, and might be libellous, considering the naming of artists and the last line in the article. Thespian 10:56, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. Unsourced, and looks more like an essay than an encyclopedia article. Perhaps the topic deserves an article, but this is not it. Sjakkalle (Check!) 11:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. Written as an essay, original research. Goldenglove^{Contribs ·Talk} 11:58, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete the current version as it stands as total original research but would support a rewrite and recreation immediately if anyone feels they can do so.-h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 13:00, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Essay. Hawkestone 13:42, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as POV essay. Chubbles 17:45, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Delete Not original thinking and not even an essay. Trivial comment and totally unencylopaedicDaverotherham 21:29, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Somebody's term paper, and little more than someone's opinion that the music recording business is racist. Especially odd, since many of us think that the music industry has always been more diversified and integrated than most other pop culture. Motown may not have eliminated hard core racism, but it had a positive effect, just my opinion. Mandsford 01:37, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment this author is just whistling dixie. ~ Infrangible 09:49, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
• People seem to agree that the subject may be worthy if the article is not. Would it not be better to rewrite the article rather than deleting it?  SmokeyTheCat  •TALK• 10:34, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment: Do you think you can? I haven't seen anyone else volunteer, and you'll need to ditch a *lot* of prejudices, and not work it as an issue of just white people ripping off black people; all the statements you've made in what you've written are half-truths - UB40, for example, has always been about 50/50 on the race mix, has done 20 albums, of which 2 were cover albums, and their biggest hit was a cover of an *Elvis* tune. Paul Simon hardly took advantage of poor South Africans and their music, as Ladysmith Black Mambazo was actually a fairly successful band for 20 years before appearing on Graceland, and they said (and history has borne it out) that they used the opportunity to get a toehold in the American market. Now, there's *lots* to be found, especially in the 50s, but as I looked over your edits, I found things like your statement that 'it was unknown' if a black artist had been paid for a cover of his song by a white cover artist. This seemed to only be based on the supposition that they wouldn't pay, and not on any reference, *anywhere*, that they hadn't. Finally, you're strongly embedded in making your own point. Racism has also gone the opposite direction, and has also been aimed by both whites and blacks at other groups (especially Asian; much of the New York rap scene has produced songs by blacks against Asians, and of course, there's Gwen Stefani's Harajuku girls). I don't have time to do it, just to rattle off things like this, and no one else had made it at all, because this is really a page that needs to be researched and cited and verified to kingdom come. I think you could contribute to it, but I'm not sure you could write it yet. --Thespian 11:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't suggesting that I write it but I was hoping that someone else might. And anyway it isn't just my point of view plenty of people would agree with the thoughts expressed. I could write more disagreeing with your points but this probably isn't the place suffice to say that a lot of your comments are just as POV as mine.  SmokeyTheCat  •TALK• 11:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Of course they are. But then, I didn't start the article, and wouldn't have, because I can't do it in an NPOV fashion; I don't actually know enough about it to be NPOV, so I have to base it on what I can find (the UB40, Gwen Stefani and Ladysmith Black Mambazo facts are from their articles here, the comment on New York rap on interviews I've read with NYC rapper Pete Miser, who is mixed race). --Thespian 18:14, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment As the article exists right now, it is an embarrassment to Wikipedia not nearly compliant with Wikipedia's policies of NPOV and RS. There is a place for this topic on Wikipedia, but it needs to start over, and it needs to start with a different article title. Chubbles 18:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

• Please refrain from using "embarrassment", as the article was only edited by one person, and that's straying close to being a personal attack/WP:BITE. Discussion of the issues with the article should concentrate on the issues, and not use loaded words like that. Thanks, --Thespian 21:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Well what title would you suggest Chubbles?  SmokeyTheCat  •TALK• 08:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

We don't seem to have an article entitled "Race and music" or "Racial theories of music" - there's a decent body of scholarship on race theory and its impact on how people viewed music in the nineteenth and early 20th century. Could be expanded to talk about the practical ramifications of such theories, such as "race records" of the early 20th century and such. Good place to start would be "Music and the Racial Imagination", by Ron Radano and Philip V. Bohlman. Ooh, and we've got a great article on coon songs - good as a model. Chubbles 14:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

"Coon songs" would seem another good reason why there is a need for article called 'Racism in Music'  SmokeyTheCat  •TALK• 16:22, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete while a legitimate topic, this version is origional research--Sefringle^Talk 06:06, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.