Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nihilist anarchism

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete. Nishkid64 03:00, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nihilist anarchism

Nihilist anarchism (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) - (View log)

This is a copy and paste from an anarchist wiki which explicitly does not operate on the principle of NPOV for understandable reasons. However, the entire premise of the article is flawed; nihilism as a movement was quite distinct from anarchism despite some overlap between individuals and a general anti-State platform. "Nihilist anarchism" is a neologism at best; I feel that this entire article is original research, much of it totally off-base (to see Nietzsche as a nihilist is a patent misreading that no competent scholar of the man would take seriously). The information in the article which IS worthwhile should be in the nihilism article, and I suspect some of it already is. --Tothebarricades 03:00, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete as blatant, unapolagetic OR. Perhaps the subject is encyclopedic but you'd never know it from this essay. No prejudice toward future recreation as a real article. --Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 05:31, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Ask for sources first. How do we know it's original research? I don't think that you "feel that this entire article is original research" is good enough. Maybe it's not and much of it can be sourced. I'm willing to give it a chance.Anarcho-capitalism 06:46, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Asking why I think this is original research is like asking why I think an apple is an apple. It's written in the form of an essay, synthesizing the works of many writers/thinkers, who themselves are not properly referenced, as well as other statements that could be coming from anywhere. There is next to zero chance this will be sourced to wikipedia's satisfaction. As I said, I think the topic could be used to create an article - beginning with sources and working from there, rather than the other way around - but this version is not salvageable.-Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 06:57, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

It just seems proper to ask for sources first. If no sources are provided then delete everything that's not sourced, which may in fact be the whole article. I wouldn't want someone to delete my edits without at least asking for sources first, just to make sure it's not original research. I know that there is such a thing as anarcho-nihilism. From the Anarchist Theory FAQ: "Closely linked to emotivist anarchism, though sometimes a little more theoretical, is nihilist anarchism. The anarcho-nihilists combine the emotivist's opposition to virtually all forms of order with radical subjectivist moral and epistemological theory."Anarcho-capitalism 05:26, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

• Delete OR, violates NPOV. --Folantin 09:00, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete I can't see any assertion of notability. If I did I would change my mind. JASpencer 09:28, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Dear god in heaven, this is weak. Not a school. It just doesn't exist. I'm sorry whoever wrote this, I'm not a wiki nazi, but come on. Also. It's personally offensive as Anarchism is diametrically opposed to Nihilism (confused 1800s Russians and chaos punks notwithstanding).--William Gillis 22:58, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as OR. --Pastordavid 06:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - "Presently, nihilist anarchy is more a collection of scattered individuals than a tendency". Well, thanks for telling us. We can't very well have articles about scattered individuals, can we? I might as well start one about my family, at least we aren't scattered. Purest original research. Moreschi ^Deletion! 13:17, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete OR. Move anything useful to nihilism or anarchism. --Duke of Duchess Street 18:49, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Much better article at Nihilist movement. --Kronecker 23:22, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
• Keep The entry is entirely sourced, though I did miss adding some of the sourcing. nihilist anarchy has become more common political theory within the anarchist movement in the United States. As stated in the talk section, the theories of nihilist anarchy can be found in the two largest anarchist magazines related to political theory in the United States, "Anarchy: A Journal of Desire Armed" and "Green Anarchy". In addition to this a growing movement is springing from these theories, which synthesize post-left critique and anti-civilization critique with Russian nihilist history, early Anarchist history (which shares a common trajectory with today's nihilist anarchy) and the works of Nietzsche, which act as much as an influence on the theory as Nechayev's Revolutionary Catechism Sourcing: Beginning paragraph and section 1 sourcing can be found at http://www.pistolsdrawn.org section 2.1 did have a source from "The Epic of Russian Literature" notably the connection, between Nietzsche, Dostoevsky and Russian nihilism. Besides this the sourcing on Nietzsche for this section can be found at http://www.pitt.edu/~wbcurry/nietzsche.html and from the ubermench wikipedia entry. Pisarev's quote can be found here: http://www.nietzschecircle.com/essayArchive4.htm Section 2.2.2. is sourced from the wikipedia on Narodnik, the Russian Nihilist Movement, Narodnaya Volya and Pervomartovtsi 2.2.3. is sourced here: http://www.feastofhateandfear.com/archives/sergi.html All of section 3 is sourced from http://www.marxists.org/archive/steklov/history-first-international/index.htm The sourcing just needs to be cleaned up and a new intro developed. Grounds for cleanup yes, deletion no.Brokendoor 04:49, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

It looks like it's going to end up getting deleted. Just re-create it, but next time put some inline sources in. I'll see if I can add some material too. Anarcho-nihilism is definitely real.Anarcho-capitalism 01:17, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

• Dispute on Consensus still?I don't think it should end with deletion, especially when there isn't a consensus. User William Gillis' statement isn't up to date with the anarchist movement and the currents that are coming from it. As a practicing nihilist anarchist, I can tell you that it is distinct in its synthesis. User Tothebarricades, I never implied that Nietzsche was a nihilist nor a nihilist anarchist, I implied that he is an influence on today's current of nihilist anarchy. Even the title of section 2 implies it "Nihilist Anarchy is not Nietzsche's Nihilism nor is it Neo-Russian Nihilism". The title exposes a possessive in regard's to Nietzsche and his theories of nihilism. If that didn't convince "Nietzsche's rebellion against nihilism has little to do with the Russian nihilists and their struggle against Russian autocracy" is also found in the intro paragraph to section 2. So Tothebarricades, I feel this analysis is without merit. I've read many wikipedia articles and footnote sourcing is more than common. I can apply inlines, but I need a moment to do so, I only became aware of this attempt to delete today.Brokendoor 04:49, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. Not a notable philosophy, full of original research. Owen 17:44, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
• Edit but KeepOkay, after reading more on "original research" I can see how you interpret some of this as original. The nihilist and anarchist history is simply to show the trajectory of influence many nihilist anarchists hold, while the explanation of Nietzsche is ment to overcome a common mistake to confuse "nihilist anarchy" "russian nihilism" and "Nietzsche's nihilism" I'll add the following notes and inlines tonight to justify keeping.
• Section 2 intro "An understanding of the Russian nihilism of the 1860s begins with an attempt to understand the concept of nihilism. This is naturally difficult because if there is a word that has even more loaded, and negative, connotations than anarchism it would be nihilism. This is particularly because the primary vehicle of our modern understanding of nihilism is through the fiction of Turgenev and Dostoevsky. Neither of these authors were particularly sympathetic to nihilism and provided nihilist characters primarily as a frame with which to drape their morality tales." from "A History of Russian Nihilism" http://www.pistolsdrawn.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=30 so paragraph 1. Dostoevsky is hostile to the ideas of Russian nihilism.
• Because both Dostoevsky and Nietzsche are hostile to "nihilism" I figured a note was in order so that confusion didn't occur between the two terms, as well as expose the connection found in the "Epic of Russian Literature" that Dostoevsky's understanding of nihilism was a heavy influence on Nietzsche, who was also abstract of the Russia situation and developed his definition without its history in mind.
• In "Nihilism as Strategy" http://www.pistolsdrawn.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13&Itemid=30 it states "Philosophically much has resulted from the nihilist ideas on value, aesthetics and practice. Most notably in Adorno's conception of Negative Dialectics, a principle which refuses any kind of affirmation or positivity, a principle of thorough-going negativity. The nihilist tradition includes Adorno, Nietzsche, Bakunin, much of classic Russian literature, Dada, punk rock, Heidegger, existentialist, post-structuralist and post-modern thinkers, and much of anarchism." Justifying a further look into Nietzsche and his ideas and exposing the connection to Dostoevsky.
• Russian nihilism is declared an influence of nihilist anarchy in "What is Left?" http://www.pistolsdrawn.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16&Itemid=30 and explains the reasoning "What Nihilism provides then is an alternative to the alternative that does not embed an idealist image of the new world it would create. It is not an Idealist project. Nihilism states that it is not useful to talk about the society you 'hold in your stomach', the things you would do 'if only you got power', or the vision that you believe that we all share. What is useful is the negation of the existing world. Nihilism is the political philosophy that begins with the negation of this world. What exists beyond those gates has yet to be written." Because Russian nihilism is an influence on nihilist anarchy, I felt it necessary to detail this, I can instead insert this information in its appropriate channels.
• "Fathers and Sons" is quoted because Bazarov is constantly sourced as a major influence and a felt I would expose an excerpt as to why and where Bazarov agrees with nihilist anarchy. To continue with "What is Left" the section entitled "Nihilism meet Anarchism" details "Libertarian Socialists also had another name that may be useful to differentiate from it from its Socialist brethren, anarchism. If Libertarian Socialism is overly concerned with self-management, federations, and workingmen's associations then anarchism may very well have been concerned with how to integrate the Russian innovations of nihilism. Bakunin is the case in point. Revisionists, of the Libertarian Socialist stripe, would focus entirely on Bakunin's positive agenda of arguing for collective action to achieve anarchy; freedom of press, speech and assembly; and the eventual voluntary associations that would federate to organize society, including the economy. They do not attend to his negative agenda of demolishing political institutions, political power, government in general, and the State. As Bakunin provided the Nihilists with a formative gift in his essay "Reaction in Germany" (1842), he also received a gift from the practice of the Nihilist Dmitry Karakozov and his failed assassination attempt of the Tsar Alexandar II. Ten years later this nihilist practice (that was is full swing by this time) became the policy of the largest anarchist federation on the European Continent. This so called “propaganda by the deed” is the primary historical vehicle by which we know anarchism (and which Libertarian Socialists spend much of their time apologizing for and distancing themselves from)." and justifies a deeper examination into this period of time to explain why. the source at the bottom entry for nihilist anarchism = "Nihilism and Anarchy" extends this sourcing to show that they do indeed share a common history, as does various sourcing within the "History of the 1st International" showing nihilists of Russia entering the anarchist movement. Does this explain that I'm not doing original research but in fact clarifying points that already are a part of nihilist anarchy?Brokendoor 02:25, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.