Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Moya (Farscape)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus to delete. Non-admin closure. The Evil Spartan 00:31, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moya (Farscape)

Moya (Farscape) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

In-universe fan page. No claim to outside notability. I searched in Google; many hits, seemingly all fan-based and largely indirect. No doubt a group of editors will fight for retention. To them I suggest making a new wiki, if one does not already exist. SolidPlaid 03:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep - Major plot device in a popular TV Series.. - Fosnez 04:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per the reasoning I gave in the discussion linked above. Basically, OR, fancruft, no way to verify a bit of it. Hersfold (t/a/c) 04:28, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Major character and setting in the television show. Bad writing requires a rewrite, not deletion. —Scott5114↗ 04:47, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Comment - Then you'd be for deletion of Docking web? Anyway, I'm not sure it's notable even if it is a major character in the TV show. SolidPlaid 04:55, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't see why not. Moya is to Farscape what the Enterprise is to Star Trek: the main setting of the show. It just happens to be that Moya is a living organism. Kind of unusual, but...—Scott5114↗ 05:00, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
The Enterprise has a bit more notability. You may recall that Star Trek fans managed to get NASA to name a space shuttle after it. I'm an sf fan, but we need citations to establish notability. SolidPlaid 05:05, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Right, but I was merely drawing a parallel. :) —Scott5114↗ 05:19, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - one would argue, one of the central characters AND locations of Farscape, all rolled into one. The article does need rewriting, but it does not justify a deletion. DEVS EX MACINA pray 05:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge and Redirect - I'm going to use this as a forum to pose a question to the community at large. I've noticed that there's a large scale debate over whether in-universe references need their own pages. I'm going to suggest we, as a community, make better use of redirects and anchor text in our editing. There's no reason that we can't have very large and detailed pages on a main subject like "Farscape" which can be navigated by way of searchable redirects to anchor text. This way we can get the best of both worlds, we keep valuable information in wikipedia in a way that the lay person could easily search. my personal views fall toward not seeing a clear difference between a unique article and an anchor, it looks like 6 of one half a dozen of another if you really think about it. But there's a large camp of editors who seem to take issue with unique articles of "fancruft". Since there are not set "rules" about either, especially in a grey area like this article, I think we can meet in the middle by merging this information into Farsacape with an anchor and having the current article redirect to the newly establish anchor section.--Torchwood Who? 06:23, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I agree with most of what you have said. None of this should be deleted. Some people will say that it should be merged into one page. But then when the page grows into a lage and detailed article, people complain the page is too large, so it gets split off, and then ironically it gets deleted. Kind of pointless IMHO. I am yet to see a good argument for the deletion of mainstream "fancraft" articles from this wiki. People often claim that it is not notable, and that it needs to be cited. Rubbish. Wikipedia is written by experts in their own field, who better to fight over the exact speed of warp 5.6 then a bunch of fanatics? People also claim that we should trans-wiki it to another wiki. People don't search other wikis, they search wikipedia - because it is supposed to be the sum of ALL human knowledge - and fiction is part of that knowledge. Fosnez 10:26, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Even if Wikipedia was to be the sum of all knowledge, certain of the Farscape pages should be folded into others. Part of the dislike for so-called fancruft is of its indiscriminate nature. For example, it would be amazing if one of the fans decided to merge International Aeronautics and Space Administration into an appropriate Farscape article before it gets nominated for deletion. SolidPlaid 08:10, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
And maybe it should become one. Maybe these AFD discussion will trigger a change in those policies. I remind you that WP policies are made by its users, as WP would be nothing without them. WP is not a democracy, Nor a dictatorship 78.113.82.16 18:44, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree. The problem is that certain fans go overboard, and create page after page on every minor detail of a show. Debate is healthy; I nominated Rantath Flux, Moya, Prowler, Talyn, Docking web, and Scarran Dreadnaught for deletion, and we can see what topics are truly important to Farscape fans from the result. How else could those of us on the outside have known? SolidPlaid 08:04, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Essentially a character on the show, and should be regarded as such, not to mention being a major aspect of the show. Article has problems, but AfD is not cleanup. PC78 12:29, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete as non-notable fictional space ship. Notability is not inherited, unless demonstrated by independent secondary sources. In universe descriptions do not demonstrate notablility. --Gavin Collins 12:58, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science fiction-related deletions. --Gavin Collins 12:58, 21 September 2007 (UTC)--
  • Keep. Non-notable? It's the main setting of a major TV series that ran for years. Plus it's also a character as established by the series, so if we delete this, then we need to delete all character articles related to Farscape. Content issues can be handled in the article talk page; the topic is just as viable as articles on the TARDIS and Andromeda Ascendant (and no I don't think consider that a violation of WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS as Farscape is equally notable as Andromeda). 23skidoo 18:07, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong keep. Article needs copyediting, but subject matter is notable per 23skidoo above. Rob T Firefly 18:59, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Week keep, prefer merge to Spaceships on Farscape with Talyn, Prowler (Farscape), Command Carrier, Farscape One, and maybe some others. This issue should really have been addressed in a talkpage first. {{mergeto}} also exists for a reason. I think Moya is in fact an important character in the show, but I doubt that many independent sources exist for it to make a good article. Per WP:FICT, Non-notable information should be deleted only when all other options have been exhausted. Going directly to AfD was IMO too bold. – sgeureka t•c 07:28, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment - I wonder if it was too bold. If Moya and Talyn are the most important ships, but have no citations worth mentioning, putting them on a list with the less important ships would just get the list on AfD. SolidPlaid 03:18, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I'd say that this looks VERY close to note six of the official notability policy page [1]--Torchwood Who? 04:29, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
also, for what it's worth, I've located at least two sources which are independent on Google Book Search for Moya. [2] I've already stated my position on this, but I do think dismissing a MAJOR character / setting of a series as fancruft isn't the road we need to go down. Maybe some truly minor characters, for example, kolrami from Stark trek TNG [3] might be better served on a dedicated wiki, but I have to support the theory that those searching wikipedia for farscape would be expecting a certain level of dedicated information on Moya. --Torchwood Who? 04:45, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I made a concerted effort to search, but my skills were not up to it. Even so, most of the books Torchwood Who? found talk in-universe. This whole debate gives us two examples of lack of perspective. One, people cannot find a way to write about their favorite book or show critically—they reguritate the hard work of the few talented folks who wrote/directed/acted the material. Two, people outside the fan base cannot distinguish the important from the non-important on Wikipedia pages because of the poor writing. I have a very liberal take on "importance," in which I always ask myself the question; "Could somebody in the distant future find themselves getting a PhD on this topic?" That said, somebody may get a PhD on Farscape someday, but probably not on Moya alone. SolidPlaid 07:50, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I was thinking more along the lines of Moya as part of Spaceships on Farscape saving all the other ship articles from AfD. I watched Farscape on DVD once (can't say I was a fan though), and I remember some specials talking about how the set of Moya was build and what it was made of etc. Although this doesn't constitute third-party sources for establishing notability, it at least proofs that there is real-world information about the subject. Kind of like writing about the puppeteers of Dominar Rygel XVI (also an inanimate part of the show yet still a major character). Encyclopedic coverage of major characters of a TV show, I would say. The fans of Farscape just need to show that they are willing to provide such info, or the next AfD will surely nip them in the butt, and then they can't say there wasn't enough "warning". In the meantime, I'd give them the benefit of doubt. – sgeureka t•c 09:11, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Significant coverage of the ongoings with Moya in the TV shows, or real-world context? The difference is critical. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 19:01, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
  • cleanup or merge, or both Not sure if it should have it's own article or not, but it's very likely that this information, in some amount, will have a home here, being such a basic part of the show. Look for real-world information, cut down on the summary, and see what comes out of that. -- Ned Scott 05:48, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.