Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Islamic Emirate of Albania

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. --Coredesat 06:18, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Islamic Emirate of Albania

Islamic Emirate of Albania (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Very straightforward - as best as I can determine (with the assistance) of various editors including here, no state or region ever existed under this name. Indeed the author of the article states that No. Only my Phd thesis will be the only coming source as far I know.. Therefore I argue this consitutes original research and novel sythesis. WP:NOT a publisher of original thought. Fredrick day 22:42, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Further comment I have searched every academic database that I have access to plus made enquiries with friends who are historians, I can still find NO evidence that anything called the "Islamic Emirate of Albania" every existed. --Fredrick day 12:05, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

• Delete: I see two problems with this article: (1) no trace can be found of an Emirate of Albania: not as part of Rumelia, in its centuries under the Ottomans, nor at any time after they departed; and (2) with all due respect to the author, the article does not seem to meet the criteria for inclusion in Wikipedia, so renaming or merging wouldn't seem to me to achieve anything. The supposed Emirate falls firmly into the period covered by the Principality of Albania, which had boundaries established by the Treaty of Bucharest (1913) and also had international recognition by all of the Great Powers. There is worthwhile material to be contributed to Wikipedia about the Albanian civil war of 1914 and about the doings of foreign invaders and the Albanian forces in control of different parts of the country during the First World War, but I should suggest that the Principality of Albania article (an inadequate piece in need of expansion) or else the main Albania article (which has almost nothing for this important period) are really the best places for such material. Xn4 23:34, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per Xn4. Carina22 23:55, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
• Delete, there may have been declarations and such but they must be established by reliable sources to be verifiable, if we are even to assume the existence of a rump state. Otherwise anything significant about the activities of the Mufti should be in an article on himself or Islam in Albania. --Dhartung | Talk 23:57, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

• Do not delete it!

Gentelmen. I understand that you did not read of the Islamic Emirate of Albania (maybe the name should be different - since its original was the Ehlil Kijam State), but for coming to your help I suggest you to read in English the book of: Joseph Swire, Albania: The Rise of a Kingdom. As for the so called Principality of Albania, that you are writing above, this principality was concentrated mainly in the city of Vlora, which was captured by the Emirate troops in 1915. The Principality of Albania, was a puppet state set up by the International Committe of Control (Habsburgs and Italians), which after the Young Turk attempt led by major Bekir Gebrene Agha to change the new status quo (with the Serbian invasion of Kosova), lost its authority and Ismail Kemal was forced to resign and flee the country. Parallel with the Islamic Emirate (centered in Tirana, Elbasan, Kavaja, Durres and Berat) in this time we have even the establishment of the Autonomus Republic of Vorio Epirus in South of Albania (by the Greeks) and later the Republic of Korca (by the French). I understand that this piece of Balkanic history is confusing for you, but I suggest you to have more patience and do further readings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by deuleu (talk • contribs) Bigdaddy1981 01:35, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - Delete I can find no mention of this putative state in any historical atlas or in any history of the First World War. Morover, this article is highly historically inaccurate:

First, the Ottomans were out of all of Rumelia save the area around Constantinople before 1914. Second, the Ottomans were not defeated in the part of Rumelia they retained - Anzac troops were landed in the Dardanelles as an effort by Britain to open Russia's supply routes but the invasion proved a failure as German commanded Turks succeeded in keeping the Anzacs contained on the beaches around Suvla Bay. I will see if I can find any references that state that this purported state existed; however, I believe it to be bogus. Bigdaddy1981 00:38, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - Where is the connection here with my previous comments?—Preceding unsigned comment added by deuleu (talk • contribs) Bigdaddy1981 01:35, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
• Comment the connection is with the factual inaccuracy of the article - we are here to discuss the article not just your comments. Also, please so sign your comments (add four tildas) so people know who is commenting - its quite confusing.Bigdaddy1981 01:33, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
• Move to user space Original research. When the thesis is published, perhaps it can be cited as a source and moved back to mainspace. - Dean Wormer 01:40, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
• Comment In Albania there is a great number of books and literature about this state. Some of them I quote here. Since in English there is not much information about this state, this does not give us the right to simply delete it. deuleu

not much information about this state - none of us can find a single english language source that makes use of this name - I find it highly unlikely it's not mentioned anywhere! --Fredrick day 15:24, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

• Merge with Principality of Albania. A Ph.D. thesis (assuming that the doctorate has been awarded) should be a peer-reviewed source. However this emirate appears only to have claiemd to be a state for a few months. The article would thus appear to be much better as a section in a wider article on the originins of the modern state of Albania. I presume the author of the article is the author of the thesis, in which case he should be able to add a brief summary of the sources relied on for his thesis. Peterkingiron 16:52, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

but according to his comments, it's not currently been defended or published, so it's OR for the moment. --Fredrick day 16:58, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

That is all the more reason for Deudeu (or whoever) to cite his sources in the article. However the impression I get is that the subject was more in the nature of a political movement (in the nature of a political party) than a state. I feel sure that there must be some English language discussion of the subject, if it is genuine. REading Deudeu's comments again, it is possible that my suggested merge target is the wrong one, but I doubt there is any merit in haveing more than one article on the history of Albania 1908-28, or whatever may be regarded as the period of the states formation. Peterkingiron 17:13, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I have privileges at three UK universities and cannot find a single reference to Islamic Emirate of Albania in any academic literature that is searchable via my membership. If such a term was used, I find it very unlikely it has never once been used by an academic source --Fredrick day 17:14, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Frederick! In the west Albania is less known than are the villages of the United Kingdom. This comes for a number of reasons; but the most important ones are:

a. Albania's isolation during the communist era b. Albania was part of the Ottoman Empire until 1912 and its importance to the westerners was equal with the importance of Kurdistan. Much of the information published on Albania nowadays is either made up by orientalist, or exotic anthropologists that speak about the vendetta of the Catholics in Northern Albania, or historians that deal with the country only briefly. Unfortunately Albania has neither oil, nor was any serious threat or place of interest for the West to be studied thoroughly. Since you have privileges at three UK universities I suggest you to read Joseph Swires book. He deals with the Islamic Emirate at length. He gives to the established state different names, and as a European romantic he is shocked why Albanians did not want to be Europeans but remained loyal to the Turks. Peterkingiron is right when says that 'this emirate appears only to have claiemd to be a state for a few months'. Yes it did not last for more than 9 - 12 months as fas I am aware. However it was a very important development in the history of Albania, since it: a. shocked the imperial plans of the Habsburgs and Italians that created Albania out of 2 Turkish provinces of Toskeria and Gegeria. b. made the project of Prince Wied to fail and make him abandon Albania. c. proved to the Europeans how difficult was to create a nation when it did not exist, by joining three different religious groups (and a number of different ethnies) and naming them to be Albanians. Ismail Kadare, the famous Albanian writer has written a roman on this state, ofcourse attacking it and accussing the Islamist as anti-nationalist, asiatic barbarians, remnants of the sultan and evil doers. While Enver Hoxha proclaimed the Islamic State as a Pughachevist revolution of Albanians against the Western Imperialism. In this link you should find some English information regarding the Islamic Emirate: http://www.geocities.com/capitolHill/rotunda/2209/Albania.html

--Deuleu

In the link you provide, can you point out where it uses the term "Islamic Emirate of Albania" as I cannot find it? --Fredrick day 21:34, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

ALBANIAN ADMINISTRATORS General Council of the Albanian Senate

The General Council of the Albanian Senate was established by the insurgents and formally ruled all of Albania.

1914 - 1915 Mustafa Ndroqi (Chairman)

             Musa Qazim Effendi
             Qamil Haxhifera, military commander
             Xhenabi Adili
             Qamil Xhaneta "Haxhi Qamili",
             leader of the revolt                           1... - 1915   
             Haxhi Demiri
             Ramadan Gjinali 

This government soon lost all importance, some of its members recognizing the authority of Esat Pashë. What remained of it was terminated in jun 1915 by Esat Pashë and the Serbs.

The author above does not use the term Islamic Emirate. He calls it 'General Council of the Albanian Senate' which is nonsense. The people that established the state had an Ottoman - Albanian committe and established a state under the leadership of Musa Qazim Effendi

--Deuleu

A link would be fine but your comment just re-enforces the idea that the name was never used and your use of it is original research and novel synthesis on your part. You have failed to establish that anyone beyond yourself has EVER used the term "islamic Emirate of Albania" --Fredrick day 21:52, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Surely a hoax. Presumably though if the PhD is accepted by a respected university it becomes a reference that others can quote to restore the article?--Bedivere 19:01, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
• Comment - If Deudeu really has written a doctoral thesis on this subject, he really ought to be able to cite some published references for his assertions. I cannot believe that there is no book in English that covers the subject sufficiently to refer to the subject, even if (in Deudeu's view) its accounbt is not wholly accurate. Otherwise, I have to assume that both the article and Deudeu's alleged doctoral thesis are hoaxes. I note that there is now one reference to a work in a foreign language (presumably Albanian). Nevertheless, I continue to take the view that it would be much better to have a single article dealing with all aspects of the formation of the state of Albania. Only if that becomes unmanageably large is a separate article such as this needed. Peterkingiron 21:51, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

• Comment: Three titles are mentioned in the article, the first two are in Albanian, the third is Albania: The Rise of a Kingdom by Joseph Swire. He was a young English travel writer, and the book mentioned was published in 1929. Swire was later a schoolmaster at Gordonstoun School and a Fellow of the Royal Geographical Society, and he lived until 1978. His two books on Albania (the other is King Zog's Albania, 1937) are recommended as among the best reference points in English for this period. Deudeu, I assume you have the 1971 edition of Albania: The Rise of a Kingdom, which page do you wish to refer us to, please? Xn4 03:44, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.