Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Denis William Cashmore

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was keep. W.marsh 00:42, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Denis_William_Cashmore

Person seems to be entirely fictional (hoax). I can find no reference to either the father or the son playing for watford FC - very strange indeed. Seems to be connected in some way to the Ian Cashmore article - unsure of reason Charlesknight 00:07, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. I had thought I had found some partial verification here but it appears to have been written by the same author as our article. I will see what else I can find. Road Wizard 00:22, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment - yes same author - Ian Cashmore seems to be real, his father seems to be real - his grandfather and greatgrandfather's career for Watford FC? Seems to be fictional. --Charlesknight 00:25, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. The info sounds entirely plausible but given the near non-notability of the person, the author really has to give some citations or verification. Without that, it's impossible to judge the veracity. Interlingua ^talk 22:24, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Trefor Jones' The Watford Football Club Illustrated Who's Who is probably as accurate as a stat book can be. The book references Football Association records, club records, various libraries and record offices, the details of various other club statisticians. No Cashmore is listed, thus we can say with 99.9% certainty that no such player played for Watford. So, with the various details of Dennis' life all non-notable, the only possible reason for a keep is the claim that he helped design Watford's Family Enclosure. I checked Oliver Phillips' official history, and the chapter on 1982-87 contains a single mention of a "new family enclosure in 1982." Still, whether Dennis designed it or not, that's not really a justification for keeping the article.HornetMike 22:25, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep Thanks for your messages.

I can assure you that "this person" is certainly not a hoax, and I am just glad that his family have not seen this.

I am not sure why Denis is not listed in the current Who's Who, as he has been in previous editions. In fact Trefor Jones is actually related to Denis (his nephew), as his mother was Denis's sister. You can verify this be contacting Trefor Jones direct, or via the archives at either the Watford Museum or Watford Football Club.

Would it help if I can get a copy of a Watford football programme showing Denis? I understand why you have to be vigilant on which articles you include, but I can assure you that the information is 100% accurate. Moreover, would it be useful to get Trefor to write a corroborating letter, or have some input?

I actually represent Denis's grandson Ian Cashmore (Trefor would be his great uncle) for his tv and radio work, and he has asked me to deal with this for him, which is why I have made these posts on his behalf, but I have no problem asking him for Trefor's details, and for a copy of a programme if this is any use?

Please let me know what you need from me to resolve this.

PeterCarrig

• Comment A letter from Trefor would be classed as original research I'm afraid - are there previous copies of the who's who floating about somewhere? What we need is something like that from either Watford Football club or another media source that identifies him as a player.

--Charlesknight 13:08, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep Thanks for getting back to me so quickly Charlesknight!

I am sure there are previous editions around. I am going to ask Ian to get onto Trefor (who will no doubt have copies of them all!!! And I will also ask him to get hold of a Watford programme if possible.

Thinking about it, I might the club a call and see if they have something on file there.

Thanks for your advice, and I'll get back to you when I have more!

PS. By the way, I think HornetMike has misread the article, as it was not Denis who designed the Family Enclosure, it was his son Raymond (Ian's dad) who did this. It was part of a competition in the early 80's which Ray won.

PeterCarrig

• Delete, or smerge to the notable relative's page. Stifle (talk) 16:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep I have now received a copy of a Watford football programme from Ian dated 30 November 1929 which shows D.Cashmore in the players lineup. I have posted a copy of the cover of this programme together with the players diagram and an enlargement of such.

I have been advised that Ian has spoken with his Dad who says he has many of Denis's Watford medals if you would like them to be posted here. Obviously that will take a while for him to do, but in the meantime hopefully the proof the attached programme provides will be of interest to you. Ian's dad is also going to contact Trefor, but since any evidence he can provide seems to "not be admissbale(!)" I am not sure what he will be able to offer.

Ian has pledged to check his grandfather's listing on here soon (as his schedule allows), and provide any additional dates / names etc which might be required. I have also just added more exact dates to the main listing.

Thanks for your help, and I hope that this will resolve the validity of the listing.

PeterCarrig 17:26, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I have reduced the image sizes to prevent page clutter. Full sized versions can be seen by clicking on each one. Road Wizard 19:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

My apologies for my previous claims of "fictional person" - --Charlesknight 19:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. Now that the article has been verified, it seems as notable as any of the others in Category:Watford F.C. players. Road Wizard 21:02, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep OK, now it's been verified. Very odd for Trefor to make a mistake! (I would keep it out the Watford notable players section, though.) HornetMike 00:54, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. Hi guys, thanks for all your help. I spoke yesterday evening with Ian who was going to try to call Trefor to see if he could provide any more info. He is also getting hold of some accompaning pictures to go on Denis's page.

Now that the article has been verified, when will it cease to be "awaiting possible deletion"?

Thanks again PeterCarrig 09:23, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Should be whenever an admin approves it. Within the next few days... HornetMike 12:04, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. as above --Charlesknight 12:09, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep because the article status is verified, better include those images into the article though. --WinHunter ^(talk) 00:37, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.