Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Clear Skies (machinima)

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[edit] Clear Skies (machinima)

Clear Skies (machinima) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (delete) – (View log)

Non-notable machinima production released only a week ago, with the only source being forums. Apparently it is "extremely popular" because the forum thread has had "hundreds of replies". Also, being linked to by the developers is not an indication of notability. Non-trivial coverage by independent, reliable, third-party sources is. Drat (Talk) 03:10, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

• Delete - Wow. I looked at the movie a bit, and it looks pretty impressive. If it catches on outside of the world of machinima forums, it probably could get enough non-trivial coverage to warrant a wikipedia article! But until then.... - Seidenstud (talk) 05:37, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
• Don't delete - Why community of thousands doesnt warrant entry? and why should people who have nothing to do with machinima, decide whether its notable work or not.. only the machinima community can decide that I would think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carmageddon (talk • contribs) 17:25, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

• Comment. The number of members in the game's community is not an argument for keeping this. By that logic, we'd have to make articles for every piece of World of Warcraft machinima ever made because it has 10 million players. You need to show that the film has recieved non-trivial coverage from multiple reliable, verifiable, independent sources. Forums and 99.999% of blogs are not reliable.--Drat (Talk) 06:58, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

• Notable - The most notable aspect of this machinima is not necessarily based on the numbers of praising forum posts, but in its artistic quality, and most notably, the pioneering method of integrating multiple game engines. I can think of no other Machinima which does this, especially not to this amazing effect. This fact alone warrants the wiki. - CraziFuzzy (talk) 08:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - It's artistic quality needs to have been covered by reliable, etc, etc. sources as I have said above. Your personal analysis is not sufficient (See WP:NOR). As for multiple engines, other machinima productions released years ago have done this.-Drat (Talk) 09:39, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - To what standard do you then use to judge artistic quality? I fail to see how you can determine who's opinion would be considered more 'reliable' than the movie's target audience. CraziFuzzy (talk) 12:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

• The opinions of critics who are well known, writing for publications with a reputation for fact checking and peer review. The opinions of random people on a forum count for nothing, as forums are not reliable sources. If you check the references section for Red vs. Blue you will see many references from reliable publications.--Drat (Talk) 13:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

• Do NOT Delete

This is a ground breaking movie/production/machinima, what ever you want to call it. This type of thing has never been done before in eve, i mean, that in itself has got to warrant this atical being kept.

This is a fantastic piece of work put together through literally YEARS of work and has had a huge impact on the world of EvE, over a thousand posts on the eve-online forums, with over eighty five thousand views of the posts! 20000 downloads at just one mirror, and there are a total of 9 mirrors, not to mention all the torrent files that exist.

I thought wikipedia was supposed to inform and add to society? Well, to be honest, i don't see how deleting such an ..dare i say it.. EPIC movie that has obivously brought hundreds and thousands of people together..well, how exactly can you jusitfy deleting this artical when so many people have enjoyed it so much and, now this it a major case in my arguement to keep this artical, so i'll put it in bold, even the game developers have taken the time out to post their amazment and approval (see bottom of post)

There is no doudt in my mind that this movie deserves a wikipedia artical.

Ok, to counter the posts for deletion:

"Seidenstud" - "Wow. I looked at the movie a bit, and it looks pretty impressive. If it catches on outside of the world of machinima forums, it probably could get enough non-trivial coverage to warrant a wikipedia article! But until then...."

You just need to read the statistics i have included in this talk page/reply, and feel free to go and check them for yourself: The forum sub section: http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=channel&channelID=29045 The post itself: http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=783871

"Drat" - "The number of members in the game's community is not an argument for keeping this. By that logic, we'd have to make articles for every piece of World of Warcraft machinima ever made because it has 10 million players. You need to show that the film has recieved non-trivial coverage from multiple reliable, verifiable, independent sources. Forums and 99.999% of blogs are not reliable."

Well, to start off with, how can you call over a thousand posts not reliable??? i'm sorry but what you have posted here is, and to put it frank, utter rubbish in relation to this post. Fair enough, it just would not be justifiable for wiki to have an artical about every movie created, but ....over a thousand posts!.. i would be very very suprised if even a few of the movies in that big list of "machinima" ever got over a thousand posts combined within the first week of unvieling it to the public.

As for multiple sources, clear skies is featured on: Eve Online forums: http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=783871 and, while this might not be completely independant, the developers went out of their way to even put the movie in the game's news: http://myeve.eve-online.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2067&tid=7 <- I have never seen that before

The Half Life 2 forums: http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=143190 The creator has been interviewed: http://www.virginworlds.com/podcast.php?show=9&ep=38 LivePvP.com, with several posts telling of it's awsomeness: http://www.livepvp.com/watch/eve-online/clear-skies/ rockpapershotgun.com: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1846

and i could go on and on, hell, it's even on the machinima forums: http://www.machinima.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=55702&sid=c2f355ee60afc851183a18beccbac37c

"Drat" - "It's artistic quality needs to have been covered by reliable, etc, etc. sources as I have said above. Your personal analysis is not sufficient (See WP:NOR). As for multiple engines, other machinima productions released years ago have done this"

Again, i disagree sir =]. As i have sead before, this kind of thing has never been seen in the eve universe before. This my friend is originality, applying an idea to a completely new spectrum, that spectrum being eve. As for the "Your personal analysis is not sufficient" remark, doesn't that make what you have just said, and by your own words "not sufficient" or irrelovent, finally on this point, the "personal analysis" of others is exactly what makes this website so efficent, so versatile, so great. So please get down of that high horse of yours. Ok, so that artical you linked opens with the following: "This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position." I fail to see how any of this relates to this movie as it is not a "fact, argument, speculation, or an idea". It is simply a movie and by no means does it "serve to advance a position", thus making this artical irrelavent to your arguement. Please read any third party sources you post in to try and back you up in future, I'm sorry for being harsh mate, but thats how it is.

I also completely agree with "CraziFuzzy" here, his/her(sorry couldn't tell by the name =P) posts:

"The most notable aspect of this machinima is not necessarily based on the numbers of praising forum posts, but in its artistic quality, and most notably, the pioneering method of integrating multiple game engines. I can think of no other Machinima which does this, especially not to this amazing effect. This fact alone warrants the wiki"

"To what standard do you then use to judge artistic quality? I fail to see how you can determine who's opinion would be considered more 'reliable' than the movie's target audience"

Finally,

"Drat" - "The opinions of critics who are well known, writing for publications with a reputation for fact checking and peer review. The opinions of random people on a forum count for nothing, as forums are not reliable sources. If you check the references section for Red vs. Blue you will see many references from reliable publications" 1. and i'm sorry to keep bringing this up but, over a thousand peoples views and opinions count for nothing? What planet are you on? Sure, MAYBE if it was 10, even 20 people and it stopped there, but this is way to many people to just disgard without a thought when they are all saying the same thing, that this movie was simply epic. I can not think of a better or bigger word that puts it so finely. 2. As for the references, this movie, or now more accuratly "Episode 1" has not had time to gain those awards or credentials. Plus, i think it is extremely unfair to be comparing something that is only just over a week old to something that has been up and running for years, no matter how great either of them are. 3. I have to be asking you this, but just exactly who do you think you are to be the judge of whose opinion is or isn't relivant, that they "count for nothing"? Your opinion is just as relevant as those "random people on a forum", i jsut can't seem to find the words to describe my annoence, putting it lightly, to how you seem to see yourself as better than other people, as more significant, as your opinions being more meaningful than others. ...ok ok, rant over

Drat, i respect you and the fact you are a very senior member of the wiki online community can only add to my respect, but comments such as "The opinions of random people on a forum count for nothing" almost destroy that respect. Wikipedia is a public Exyclopidia for the sharing of knowledge. "random people" come on this forum everyday and add to that knowledge, how can you say their opinions count for nothing.

Please take a deep breath before you reply and don't try and dismiss peoples opinions as trivial next time.

Conculsion I am going to have to quote "CraziFuzzy" here, as he i think has put it perfectly: "The most notable aspect of this machinima is not necessarily based on the numbers of praising forum posts, but in its artistic quality, and most notably, the pioneering method of integrating multiple game engines. I can think of no other Machinima which does this, especially not to this amazing effect. This fact alone warrants the wiki"

plus, it must be pretty epic to spur me on to write this chunk of text =P

Developers posts: CCP Dionysus: "very very nice.. awesome" CCP Casqade: "Wow. This is exactly what I wanted.

Movies with story is always better than the regular flashy effects coordinated with music. I have been longing for something like this so long. Thank you so very much!

Great work! I want to buy you beer at Fanfest." ISD Deckard Bishop: "Amazing movie!

We want more! I think I speak for everyone when I say we need another episode! I'm sure you can cope without sleep for another year or two!!!" CCP Hastur: "oooh Very nice" CCP Whisper: "This is making the rounds of the office at the moment...everyone who's seen it has been blown away while laughing their heads off. Very well done sir, very well done. Very Happy

...now if you excuse me, I am off to prepare a pre-recorded message begging for help." CCP Oneiromancer: "Pure awesomeness!

Now I need to steal a hat to tip it to you. Possibily several hundred hats.

I can only hope that we will get to see some more of your and your team's amazing work in the future and if you come to the FanFest this year the entire QA department will drown you in beer and cookies." CCP Hunter.: "L O V E D I T ! ! ! !" CCP Whisper: "Actually if you go by the backstory there are numerous ships still piloted the "traditional" way as illustrated in this movie. Pod pilots are the elite of the EVE universe and better able to control their ships, but I would assume that at any given point and time there are more ships being flown the normal way than through pod technology. But that's me descending into deep RP again which leads to me wanting to have more NPC traffic actually warping in and out rather than just appearing in space like god's own film splice special effect.

Couple of us were talking about this movie in the pub this evening...every one of us already has a favourite line from this video. It got quoted and laughed about a lot, so again: Job well done." CCP Greyscale (a very senior/important dev member): "I laughed so hard my top wingy bit fell off.

You sir are a god among men and I salute you.

o7" CCP Navigator: "John Rourke,

Please take a bow and bask in the glory of being an EVE Online God.

That video was nothing short of brilliant.

o7"

and many many more, i will take the time tomorrow to post them you for you.

i'm sorry, but no matter how much you argue, but THESE people you cannot ignore of say that they are "random people" and "their opinion counts for nothing" , they make the game!!!

Electricalplug (talk) 02:13, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

The views and opinions expressed here are by no means those of of the "Clear Skies" production team or those of the eve online comminity, including developers. They are the sole opinions of a fan wanting to see a great peace of work duely recognised 86.13.148.14 (talk) 02:44, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Electricalplug, I truly do appreciate your passion and efforts in trying to protect this article. However, your arguments and rebuttals are virtually consistently opposed to Wikipedia policy. I urge you to read thoroughly the policies of verifiability and no original research, plus the essay Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions. Having read those, I then urge you to reexamine your comments here objectively in the context of Wikipedia and it's policies. After you better understand what exactly is going on here, I do hope you stick around and become an active editor, as your energy level could be quite an asset to this project. -Seidenstud (talk) 03:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)